Accurate Identification

MilkmanWes

Arachnobaron
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Everyone seems to agree that identifying a T from a photo correctly is unreliable.

Therefore the inverse must also be true - holding these two I found this weekend up to a photo lineup to see who they most closely resemble leaves a pretty large doubt about what I am holding.

So where can I get something that goes into the minutae of traits used in the taxonomy of the little darlings yet is still understandable by someone who is not a biologist?
 

Brian S

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You might check with the American Tarantula Society. They have several books available. You may also check with the British Tarantula Society as well.
 

MilkmanWes

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Any particular one by them you recomend? Really looking for a specific recomendation on someting to seek out.
 

Scylla

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Sounds like you want a Field Guide to Tarantulas!!
 

Malhavoc's

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Also do a search for molt identification as I can't rmemeber the individuals names ATM Their is several people who can tell you the species of spider from the molt here.
 

Brian S

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I haven't looked at all of the books from ATS. Give RG Breene (ATS) an email and tell him what you are looking for and I would say he can steer you in the right direction. That man knows his stuff for sure.
 

MilkmanWes

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Exactly. I looked through one insect field guide that detailed all the characteristics to quickly classify a bug to the genus and specie level. This sort of detailed identification information is what I would like for tarantulas.

Scylla said:
Sounds like you want a Field Guide to Tarantulas!!

As for people on here that can check molts, that is great. Unfortunately I don't know when I might see a molt from the ones in question. And honestly I would rather learn myself and then impose upon them to 'grade my homework' and tell me if I was on the mark.
 

FryLock

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Mr Smiths ID books are a good start (they also teach basic methods for exam) but i fear it will be some time before we have upto date books with updated generic keys and redescriptions of old type's and i would hope picture lay out's of all the key features in order of import in an easy too follow match your spiders part A against all the part A's of the types then move to check the part B's and so on of all the known species of that genus, it will take time but im sure with the good work people like VvW are doing it will happen :cool:
 

Steve Nunn

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Because the ID keys are all over the place, what genus or subfamily are you interested in?
 

MilkmanWes

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FryLock said:
Mr Smiths ID books are a good start (they also teach basic methods for exam)
You are referring to Andrew M. Smith? Series of books titled XXX Spider: Tarantulas of [some continent] published by Fitzgerald right? Saw those and wondered about them. I have seen those on book sites and just read the BTS book review after seeing your mention. I will get one of them and see if it is what I am wanting.

Steve Nunn said:
Because the ID keys are all over the place, what genus or subfamily are you interested in?
ID Keys - Basic as it sounds, that piece of vocabulary was something I didn't know and may help me get closer to what I want.

Well starting with a high altitude view, what about a key for determining genus or subfamily? I would be happy to improve what I know to the point of being able to pick up a T and figure out that much all by my lonesome.

As for a more immediate application I have a suspected Lasiodorides polycuspulatus and two A. seemani that have some curious differences between them. Would love to use these guys as a practical learning experience on this.
 

Steve Nunn

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MilkmanWes said:
Well starting with a high altitude view, what about a key for determining genus or subfamily? I would be happy to improve what I know to the point of being able to pick up a T and figure out that much all by my lonesome.
What you are asking is almost impossible to do. Only because some of the taxonomic characters (physical features significant to the entity in question) are very difficult to determine for even the most experienced keeper. You would also need a stereo scope in most instances and perhaps a little experience cutting critters up. However, that said, I might try and do up an ID key to firstly identify the spider as a tarantula (Infraorder Mygalomorphae, Family Theraphosidae) from other mygales/trapdoor spiders. Then tarantula/theraphosid subfamily, then the genera within that subfamily. Forget species keys, nobody has enough time to handle that task. This is a large task to accurately complete, given that a fair amount of paperwork is needed to locate the most recent changes. However, with a little help and some emails to a few experts, it could be done and posted here somewhere.

For many this will be of no use at all, but for a few it will be, it's worth doing. This same question gets asked all the time, it would be nice for folk to see what's involved in accurate identification anyways :)

I'll get into it as soon as I can.

Steve
 

FryLock

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Steve i take my hat off to you ;) if your able to pull that off I think you maybe surprised how many here may take an interest .. or maybe not time will tell but I would hope it’s the former, not only would people myself included learn something also as they give checking morphological features a go with any old moults or deady’s they have laying around they will realise how mind numbl- er I mean mind expanding and wonderful it is :D ,
all jokes aside this hobby is a strange one as lay folk like myself are often forced too give time and thought to matters that would normally only interest academic’s I cant think of another animal keeping hobby were taxonomists and keepers have to be bed fellows as often as this one,
BTW If you can pull this off it will have too be made a sticky :cool:
 

Aviculariinae

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Hi Steve,

Well you definetly have another interested party here!

Cheers
Brendan
 

MilkmanWes

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Forget making a sticky, I would buy the book.

Now if I understand correctly the ICZN guides the nomencalture of animals. So who or what oversees the standards for what qualifies as a member of a particular group at any level in the Linnaean system?

I guess I just cannot fathom a hierarchical system of organization without some rules somewhere that define how to determine where on the tree something fits.

So when a new species is defined someone writes a paper on the matter for everyone to read and submit to the peer review process. So more papers get published and then responses are published to the responses. This is where all the paperwork comes in I suppose - Gathering all these things and weeding out the pertinent information and the mistakes made by the original author or by over eager responses. Does that sound about right?

I guess I can infer that there is no committee that calls a halt to the process and writes the end results in a book of definitions to be gospel untl someone disprioves it through the scientific method. Instead the process is continual.

Glad I chose engineering over life sciences.

Guess I was just hoping for some key of characteristics to help resolve confusion and give more surety to identification rather than guessing from a photo with the big disclaimer that it is only a guess and not guaranteed. I hate not knowing for sure.
 

FryLock

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MilkmanWes said:
Forget making a sticky, I would buy the book.

Now if I understand correctly the ICZN guides the nomencalture of animals. So who or what oversees the standards for what qualifies as a member of a particular group at any level in the Linnaean system?

I guess I just cannot fathom a hierarchical system of organization without some rules somewhere that define how to determine where on the tree something fits.
Ok i think i know this one (correct me someone if im wrong here :? ) this is were the many disciplines that fall under Phylogenetics come in most notably cladogram’s,
these being charts that list the morphological traits of different smaller groupings that comprise in turn larger groups by the understanding relations between different smaller group’s by analysing there defining traits and then deciding to whom one group/groups is most closely related and whom a group/groups is most lightly too have descended from,
a cladogram such as this can be drawn up for say species within a genera or genera within a subfamily and so on, so we paint a picture of the evolution of living beings and how they have branched and changed over time.

Whoo i need a drink now :D
 

MilkmanWes

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If I get what you are saying Fry, you work the tree backwards. You find which subgroups belong together by looking at similarities and relationships rather than dividing a group into subgroups based on differences?

That really messes with my head man.

In my way of thinking you start with a broad definition and narrow it down further and further until you have a single specific (haha same root word as specie) that accurately defines something.
 

FryLock

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My understanding (which is mostly alkhol related) is it can be worked both ways in order get the best picture of which came first,
but im sure there's many here that can explain it much better then me that said you not really need a full understanding of Phylogenetics and related fields too learn to id a spider to say subfamily or even genus level but i would think you do need tho's skills to name species but thats way out of the ball park of what most hobbyist's are going to need and what i think were speaking of wishing to learn here.
 
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