Why not X-breed or create hybrids?

Pokie1 · Oct 24, 2004

I was just noticing that many people go to great lengths to make sure that you have the same species and subspecies etc. when breeding Ts. Has anyone thought of taking a different road. Perhaps a road less traveled. For example, breeding Aphonopelma Seemani and cross-breeding it with A. chocolades. Or more perverse, how about something like Stromatopelma calceatum and Hapelopelma lividum? You get the idea. What if you could create, more beautiful, and virulent strains? What if venoms could be altered?

Could this be an answer for the ever growing issue of CITES that I am reading so much about. What if we could breed into species the colors etc that we want and breed out the traits that we don't?

It is done with higher animals (mammals) all the time. Purebreds that are hybridized can be amazing. Of course, one could argue that this is Pandoras box and not to touch it. Look at the "killer bee hybridization fiasco" in North America.

Okay, Y'all what do you think?

Pokie 1

Raindog · Oct 24, 2004

Indeed,

I'm currently crossbreeding Periodical cicada with Pterinochilus murinus because everyone should have or at least be subjected to a flying OBT.

Sheri · Oct 24, 2004

This is a discussion that has been had many times over on these boards, and typically becomes heated. This is one of those hot issues that people feel very strongly about.

Bear in mind that there are many people in the hobby trying to preserve and captive breed existing species, not to mention the general confusion that lives in genus, and re-classifications, and the on-going horror of common names being used in the trade, adding new hybrid species to the mix would complicate matters even further.

How many "what species is this" threads do we see from people who have a ultimate male, or bought their T at a garage sale 7 years ago etc...
I am sure you can envision that the confusion in IDing potential hybrids down the road supercedes even the fuzziest "sex me" threads...

However, as you state, some feel crossbreeding would be of benefit to the trade.
Here is a thread that has discussed this topic at some length.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=31002

You may find it useful in the future to employ a search using your keyword.

Wh1teshark · Oct 24, 2004

Raindog - good point.

Pokie1 - This subject has been discussed here alot already, but most people think that It's a really bad thing to crossbreed since taxonomy is extremely hard as it is without having a bunch of hybrids.

Why bother when there are so many increadeble species around??

/Sharky

Wh1teshark · Oct 24, 2004

Shei - you were quicker.

Tripple right!

priZZ · Oct 24, 2004

And sometimes You can't be sure which species You exactly have. And that is very sad for breeding.

MilkmanWes · Oct 24, 2004

Raindog said:
Indeed,

I'm currently crossbreeding Periodical cicada with Pterinochilus murinus because everyone should have or at least be subjected to a flying OBT.

Don't tell us which brood so it comes as a surprise some year......

Code Monkey · Oct 24, 2004

Okay, Y'all what do you think?

Yes, this is a "Use the ####### search function" subject. If you don't know why the answer is 'no' then you shouldn't be breeding is my knee-jerk reaction

Also, you don't really seem to know what a hybrid is based upon your use of the term 'purebred' in the post.

My "short" canned response is this:

If the cross were a true hybrid then in all likelihood the offspring will be sterile, you've just wasted valuable genetic stock to create a genetic dead-end, way to go #######.

If the cross were of two subspecies and you wind up with fertile offspring then you risk the purity of the actual subspecies in the trade (already happened with B. vagans & B. sabulosum), way to go #######.

There are something on the order of 300 species that have been in the pet trade at sometime or another and another 500-600 that could potentially be introduced. Want variety? Try booking a flight to a country that allows collection and do your part to increase diversity that way; besides, if you wind up with something as sought a P. metallica you might even turn a profit instead of seeing yourself blacklisted with all of the major dealers AND hobbyists.

Even if we assume that none of those three factors really apply, generational times of most tarantulas are at the least 2-3 years and some are in the decade or longer range. Do you have the next 20-100 years to dedicate yourself to finding a true-breeding strain? If not, then why start?

And, just for you:

If you're trying to cross something like Stromatopelma and Haplopelma you're too ignorant of the underlying principles of hybridisation to be allowed anywhere two tarantulas of the opposite sex.

Also, fyi, the "killer bee fiasco" was an outcome of the ignorance of how invert genetics work - no one could have predicted that the handful of genes that are different in the scutella subspecies would always be expressed in the offspring). These are not dogs or even snakes (the reptile hobby is a massive clusterfark in my opinion) and unless you can call yourself someone qualified to be learning and publishing genetic analysis of the offspring, the meddling is nothing but a waste of time & energy with the potential to mess up the hobby.

D4RK-3L3M3NT · Oct 24, 2004

Code Monkey said:
Yes, this is a "Use the ####### search function" subject. If you don't know why the answer is 'no' then you shouldn't be breeding is my knee-jerk reaction

Also, you don't really seem to know what a hybrid is based upon your use of the term 'purebred' in the post.

My "short" canned response is this:

If the cross were a true hybrid then in all likelihood the offspring will be sterile, you've just wasted valuable genetic stock to create a genetic dead-end, way to go #######.

If the cross were of two subspecies and you wind up with fertile offspring then you risk the purity of the actual subspecies in the trade (already happened with B. vagans & B. sabulosum), way to go #######.

There are something on the order of 300 species that have been in the pet trade at sometime or another and another 500-600 that could potentially be introduced. Want variety? Try booking a flight to a country that allows collection and do your part to increase diversity that way; besides, if you wind up with something as sought a P. metallica you might even turn a profit instead of seeing yourself blacklisted with all of the major dealers AND hobbyists.

Even if we assume that none of those three factors really apply, generational times of most tarantulas are at the least 2-3 years and some are in the decade or longer range. Do you have the next 20-100 years to dedicate yourself to finding a true-breeding strain? If not, then why start?

And, just for you:

If you're trying to cross something like Stromatopelma and Haplopelma you're too ignorant of the underlying principles of hybridisation to be allowed anywhere two tarantulas of the opposite sex.

Also, fyi, the "killer bee fiasco" was an outcome of the ignorance of how invert genetics work - no one could have predicted that the handful of genes that are different in the scutella subspecies would always be expressed in the offspring). These are not dogs or even snakes (the reptile hobby is a massive clusterfark in my opinion) and unless you can call yourself someone qualified to be learning and publishing genetic analysis of the offspring, the meddling is nothing but a waste of time & energy with the potential to mess up the hobby.

Wow, very very strong message of personal opinion, but I think it was best done when Sheri provided the link for further discussion.

Code Monkey · Oct 24, 2004

revxus said:
Wow, very very strong message of personal opinion, but I think it was best done when Sheri provided the link for further discussion.

All Sheri did was provide a link to one of the countless threads where this has been discussed before, nothing further was implied. Further, you will find my opinion included in just about each and every one of those threads so please refrain from your miguided attempt to make a point where there is none to be made.

David Burns · Oct 24, 2004

If you want, you can try to change a species without doing it harm. In every species there are always variants. If you were to breed specific variants together, after many generations, that variation would become dominant. For example, if you bred only the largest specimens of OBTs together. After many generations, the offspring would get larger. If you keep breeding them in this manner you could have a pure strain of OBT that is 15". The same could be done for variations in color, growth rate, temperment, etc...

D4RK-3L3M3NT · Oct 24, 2004

Code Monkey said:
All Sheri did was provide a link to one of the countless threads where this has been discussed before, nothing further was implied. Further, you will find my opinion included in just about each and every one of those threads so please refrain from your miguided attempt to make a point where there is none to be made.

You're right, but curiosity is something that occurs in all of us - I was and still consider myself a "newbie" in this hobby, and at a very early stage of it I also became curious about crossbreeding and I think we just need to be very careful of how we say things - the point is to discourage crossbreeding rather than offend someone with harsh words. I agree everyone has a right to their opinion and I also disagree with crossbreeding attempts, but the matter in which your message was given it is only going to anger another keeper and encourage him/her just for the sake of adversity.

Code Monkey · Oct 24, 2004

revxus said:
but the matter in which your message was given it is only going to anger another keeper and encourage him/her just for the sake of adversity.

That's a lot of power you grant my messages...

The thing is that this subject has been covered ad nauseam and I didn't really feel the need to sugar coat something when my canned response was meant to be a distillation of the overall concensus (with a couple of points thrown in specific to the original post).

Sheri · Oct 24, 2004

revxus said:
You're right, but curiosity is something that occurs in all of us - I was and still consider myself a "newbie" in this hobby, and at a very early stage of it I also became curious about crossbreeding and I think we just need to be very careful of how we say things - the point is to discourage crossbreeding rather than offend someone with harsh words. I agree everyone has a right to their opinion and I also disagree with crossbreeding attempts, but the matter in which your message was given it is only going to anger another keeper and encourage him/her just for the sake of adversity.

You will come to appreciate Code's frankness as time goes on, trust me.
The reason why I linked to that discussion was for you to have an opportunity to absorb some of the opinions on this issue before making some sweeping statements about it.

Pokie1 · Oct 24, 2004

Thanks for the info

Alright, for those of you who have been discussing this for decades, please forgive my ignorance. I am a newby (obviously) and simply wondered "what if." I was asking to learn, and figured this was a good place to do so.

Incidently, for those asking about wolf-hybrids, I can speak from my experience. Though you never know exactly what you have, I got lucky with mine. I had animals that could not/did not bark, but growled and howled. They were ferociously territorial, but loyal to the pack (the family). They were very intelligent, more so than a typical sled-dog. The point was to have the best of both worlds. I learned that sometimes you get the worst of both too. Its a crapshoot, and for most people not worth the extra effort and risk.

Anyway, back to arachnids. I will go do some research. Thanks to everyone who answered my question.

Pokie1

G_Wright · Oct 24, 2004

I will have to say I agree stringly with Chip on this one

Cross breeding is frowned upon and I dont agree with it it could possible be for this reasion and poepole ignorence that the Avics are all messed up

David Burns breeding them like that is not cross breeding your stil keeping them pure.

Please refrain from cross breeding T's please it's stupid and a waist of time as coad said most offspring are infertile and it gets you a bad name

knottyduke · Oct 24, 2004

I agree here with Sheri and Code Monkey completely!!!

a great link was provided for others who have not gone through this before to take a look at the answers.

I don't think that any person should attempt a hybrid until the remaining work of the exsisting species is completed. It just wouldn't make sense and would be a terrible waste of common sense.

For those of you who are thinking about this need to start studing up on your biology and microbiology.

Until then its only ignorant talk.

Henry Kane · Oct 24, 2004

Hey Pokie1,
To be honest, I think the hybrid question arises in the majority of new hobbyists minds sooner or later. I know for sure I asked the very same question years back.
The fact of the matter is however, as adressed above, the negatives far outweigh the positives. Still, until it's explained, the real answer is somewhat elusive to newcomers to the hobby. I would have never guessed at the time I asked.

Just to give a little more insight on the subject, there have been crossbreeding successes in the past. In one particular incident, they (B. vagans and B. sabulosum Chip mentioned I believe) were introduced into the market. Since the dealer clearly labeled and sold them as hybrids he trusted it would be ok. Regardless, the majority of hobbyists who were aware of this did not agree. People trade spiders, people give spiders away, some even simply forget what they have or get young specimens mixed up or mislabeled. The people who actually work on a taxonomy level saw a potential nightmare and rightly so. If a pet shop were to acquire them, slap a common name label on them etc etc...you get the point. Still, the possibility of even one or more of these hybrids going on to waste or contaminate the true species bloodline was not worth the "novelty" of hybrids in the hobby.

Other successful x-breeding attempts have taken place on an experimental basis where the breeder had no intentions whatsoever of distributing the offspring. In some cases, the hybrid offspring may have even been destroyed.

Anyhow, just thought it may be helpful to give some insight from both sides of the court.

TAke care.

Atrax

Spider_Monkey · Oct 24, 2004

David Burns said:
If you want, you can try to change a species without doing it harm. In every species there are always variants. If you were to breed specific variants together, after many generations, that variation would become dominant. For example, if you bred only the largest specimens of OBTs together. After many generations, the offspring would get larger. If you keep breeding them in this manner you could have a pure strain of OBT that is 15". The same could be done for variations in color, growth rate, temperment, etc...

I love this idea! It's something I have just began to look into and I am so glad someone else has thought of it as well.

D4RK-3L3M3NT · Oct 24, 2004

This topic always heats up the discussion, glad to hear everyone's opinion.

Why not X-breed or create hybrids?

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