Calcium problem fact or myth

Bigboy

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I've heard a bit about how a diet high in calcium can be deliterious to our beloved 8 legged friends. It is for this reason that I have created this thread. I would like those of you who feed your T's "dusted" food or diets high in vertebrates to post any illnesses or problems your T's have had in the past year along with the diet, frequency of feeding and husbandry techniques. With those of you who have any links or articles regarding this matter I would like for you to also post into this thread. Thankyou.
 

Windchaser

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This is a fairly new concern and is being studied at this moment. You my want to contact Darrin Vernier (gphx) of Golden Pheonix Exotica. He is currently looking in to the topic.
 

shogun804

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i asked this very same question about 8 months ago, i was told it made no difference becasue T's lack bones :? i had bought some of that dust to sprinkle crickets then go figure, i threw it out :rolleyes: hopefully the person that windchaser mentioned will come up with some valuble information.
 

JohnxII

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I remember reading about how excessive calcium in a T's diet may lead to constipation...
 

Imegnixs_Cinder

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I have heard it can cause problems with the fangs not shedding properly, I was feeding pre killed mice etc to my Smithi so took him off that diet just in case, figured better safe than sorry.
Code Monkey made a lot of sense about this issue when I posted about it a week or 2 back, please see the thread http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=48581
 
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cacoseraph

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shogun804 said:
i asked this very same question about 8 months ago, i was told it made no difference becasue T's lack bones :?
that's somewhat silly... calcium obviously is improtant in bones... but it's also used elsewhere in the human body and in various places in the invertebrate body...
 

Marcelo

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Calcium Vs Gutloading

Well regarding to calcium I have some experience.

I used to breed Chameleons, and I used to dust calcium on the crickets before feeding my chams. What I learned was to much calcium may kill your pet, I lost 2 chams doing that. It is very difficult to determine the exact amount of calcium you give to your pets. Even the calcium labels do not determine the exact amount, you can give them to much or to little, again difficult to know the right amount.

I recomend to gutload your crickets very well, 2 prior feeding yur T's.
PLEASE: DO NOT KILL YOUR T'S by giving them improper calcium amounts.

Since I have lots experiencie with crickets, you may check this:
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/jan2003/crickets/crickets.html

Gutloading Basics
By Jason Descamps
"Gutloading is a term used more and more frequently in chameleon keeping today. However, many people are still not familiar with the process and it's many benefits. Gutloading refers to the process of feeding prey items a nutritious diet prior to feeding them to your chameleon. The nutrients found in the insect's gut are then passed on to the animal much as it would be in the wild. Gutloading prey items prior to feeding your chameleons offers a more nutritious meal, reduces the reliance on vitamin supplementation, and improves the overall health and vitality. Gutloading also provides the keeper with tools to help balance the natural mineral content of feeder insects. For example the poor calcium to phosphorus ratio in crickets. There are many commercially available gutloads available for purchase and almost as many "do it yourself" recipes found on the internet. While feeding your insects something is better than nothing at all, it is important to examine the ingredients and make decisions based on the needs of your animal. Many insect farmers utilize feed for their insects that is cheap and widely available such as chicken feeds, and many attempt to sell it as a complete diet along with their insects. While this diet is readily accepted by most insects it is not a suitable gutload for chameleons. Often times these mixes contain high levels of vitamins and minerals that could be dangerous to your chameleons along with products that are high in oxalates and phytates that will impede calcium absorption. They are also usually quite high in corn based content. Corn is difficult to digest and offers far less nutrients per serving than other grain products available.

When choosing a gutload you should examine not only the ingredients themselves but also the amounts of each ingredient included in the mix. Many gutload formulas contain beneficial ingredients but at level that far exceed the recommended daily intake for adult humans. Obviously this would not be an ideal situation for your chameleon with any nutrient. In choosing your gutload, it is important to check the levels of sodium, vitamin A, calcium, phosphorus, and fat. These ingredients are all beneficial to your chameleon at the proper levels, however, these items will often be included at elevated levels due to the preparation process or poor ingredient choices. A word of caution, some gutloading mixes, particularly those that are all grain based products, can spoil and mold. If your gutload is moldy it should be disposed of immediately. Moldy grain can produce toxic substances that can be deadly in the right situations. The following is a listing of varying nutrients and their roles in gutload recipes available today.

Protein
Protein sources are extremely important in a gutload recipe. Protein provides the building blocks for skeletal and muscular growth. It also provides the amino acids that aid in body functions such as carbohydrate conversions. Many "do it yourself" mixes recommend cat or dog food as a primary source of protein. While these products are indeed high in protein, they are also usually very high in fats, oils and fillers and can often lead to digestive issues. Most commercial mixes available utilize a fish meal based protein. Fish meal is a very potent protein used in animal feeds of all kinds, most commonly chicken mash. There is some evidence that diets high in animal protein can lead to higher uric acid levels in the blood resulting in gout. Soy is another commonly used protein source in a few gutload recipes, and while soy is high in protein it is also high in oxalates and phytates, both of which will bind to calcium and prevent its absorption. Another protein source, although still relatively uncommon in gutloads, is alfalfa. Alfalfa is an easily digestible source of protein, B-complex vitamins, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, iron and potassium and is another safe choice for providing protein. Certain species of feeder insects, such as roaches, have higher protein requirements than other feeder insects. Often you will see diets specifically geared towards these higher protein requirements, the same precautions should be taken when choosing a higher protein mix for these types of animals. The type of protein is often times more important than the quantity.

Carbohydrates
Carbohydrates are the primary source of energy in the body. Complex carbohydrates are more readily usable by the body for energy purposes, they also contain higher amounts of vitamins and minerals than "simple" carbohydrates. Complex carbohydrates are found in fruits, vegetables, and grains. Many commercially available gutloads and cat or dog food based DIY recipes contain low levels of complex carbohydrates, instead providing difficult to digest carbohydrate sources such as corn. A gutload with varying nuts, fruits and grains will provide a better base for complex carbohydrates, and therefore energy to your chameleon.

Sodium
Sodium plays an important role in the regulation of fluid levels as well as blood pressure. However, diets containing high amounts of sodium have been theorized to cause water retention resulting in edema. Stress can cause a loss in potassium, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium and zinc also leading to high level of sodium. Many commercially available gutload mixes, especially dog or cat food based, contain very high levels of sodium. Levels that far exceed the recommended daily allowance for adult humans. The elevated levels can lead to chronic dehydration, kidney damage, and edema in captive chameleons.

Potassium
Potassium is a mineral that assists in muscle function and maintaining fluid and electrolyte balance in cells. Most commercially available gutloads contain at least trace amounts of potassium.

Fat
Fat plays an important role in the body in all healthy animals. Sick or compromised chameleons can often be assisted by adding more fat calories to the diet. However, too much fat can lead to health problems. Many "do it yourself" recipes and commercial mixes utilize high fat ingredients for protein and filler sources and care must be taken to restrict large amounts of fat in the diet.

Along with a dry gutload mix, feeder insects should always have a moisture source available. Many keepers utilize fresh fruits and vegetables as this moisture source as they provide additional vitamins, minerals and nutrients to your feeders. Vegetables such as romaine, squash, sweet potato and carrot are readily accepted along with fruits such as apples, oranges and even watermelon rind. Uneaten fruits and vegetables should be removed every other day to help prevent mold in the feeder container. Potato is also utilized quite often as a moisture source in insect farms and by many keepers and while it is a decent moisture source, it provides very little in the way of additional nutrients. Water crystals and other gelatin type products are becoming increasingly popular with hobbyists due to the price and ease of use, however, many of these products contain no nutritional benefit and will only provide a source of moisture. If these types of products are utilized a proper dry gutload mix should be available at all times.

Armed with this information, you can make informed decisions regarding your choice in gutloading recipes. Chameleon nutrition has come a long way in the past 10 years but there is still a lot of research to be done in this field. Providing a nutritious gutload made with quality ingredients is one way to help provide this to your chameleons."

Well this apply as well to TARANTULAS, since they eat crickets, the more healthy the cricket the more healthy the tarantula gets.

HOPE THIS HELPS

good luck with your beast

Marcelo
from Mexico
 

Windchaser

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Marcelo said:
Well regarding to calcium I have some experience.

I used to breed Chameleons, and I used to dust calcium on the crickets before feeding my chams. What I learned was to much calcium may kill your pet, I lost 2 chams doing that. It is very difficult to determine the exact amount of calcium you give to your pets. Even the calcium labels do not determine the exact amount, you can give them to much or to little, again difficult to know the right amount.
Though this is very interesting, it has nothing to do with tarantulas. Calcium requirements for a vertabrate are not the same as those for an invertabrate. This information does not transfer across to very different animals.
 

Whiskeypunk

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This makes perfect sense.

From Perspectives in Nutrition, 6th Edition:

Many minerals have similar molecular weights and charges (valences). Magnesium, calcium, iron, and copper all exist in the 2+ valence state. Having similar size and the same charge can compete with each other for absorbtion mechanisms, thereby affecting each other's bioavailbility and metabolism.
While this book does apply to humans, not spiders, I see no reason why the molecular weights/charges of minerals and their interference with each other would be any different within a tarantula's digestive tract. An example is that in human is phosphorus is very effciently absorbed, and too much soda pop which contains phosphoric acid, can interfere with calcium absorbtion. In tarantulas, the abosrbtion rates could be reversed or differ, IE calcium blocks other nutrients, especially since a mouse would be chock FULL of calcium as it's bones are digested.

However, like others have said, until scientific studies on Ts are complete, we won't know for sure, and every thing I have said heresay.
 

Czalz

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I have wondered much about this subject. I know a lot of people have tried to answer it as best they can, but as said earlier there is just no way to know for sure until some hard core proof(based on real study) is given.
I would tend to think that no matter how simple an animals digestive system is there must be some way to supplement them. Perhaps in t's this could be limited to offering a food higher in protein (roaches vs. crickets).......perhaps.
I would be lying to say that I haven't experimented with a few of my t's by supplementing their diets with digestive enzymes etc. in hopes of seeing a difference in growth( hair length, color, etc.) due to a higher absorbtion of protein. But ,these kinds of experiments are meant for more complex intestinal systems, and I have not yet reached any conclusions as to whether or not this is a practical (or very effective) means of supplementation.( No negative side effects though)
 
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Windchaser

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czalzsmith said:
I have wondered much about this subject. I know a lot of people have tried to answer it as best they can, but as said earlier there is just no way to know for sure until some hard core proof(based on real study) is given.
I would tend to think that no matter how simple an animals digestive system is there must be some way to supplement them. Perhaps in t's this could be limited to offering a food higher in protein (roaches vs. crickets).......perhaps.
I would be lying to say that I haven't experimented with a few of my t's by supplementing their diets with digestive enzymes etc. in hopes of seeing a difference in growth due to a higher absorbtion of protein. But ,these kinds of experiments are meant for more complex intestinal systems, and I have not yet reached any conclusions as to whether or not this is a practical (or very effective) means of supplementation.
The issue is not if the tarantula can digest the calcium, it is whether or not it causes problems with the strength of the exoskeleton. As mentioned, Darrin is studying the matter at this moment. What he has observed is that there have been several tarantulas, mostly T. blondi and A. geniculata that have lost fangs. What he noted was that all of these tarantulas had a diet that consisted of a fair amount of vertebrate prey, which are much higher in calcium (approximately 15 times) than any of your typical invertebrate prey items. The thought was that the increased levels of calium were causing problems with the development of the exoskeleton. The chelicera have a high concentration of manganese in them. From my understanding, manganese and calcium conflict with each other.

I believe that Darrin is trying to get various exuviums run through a mass spectrometer to see if the levels of calcium and manganese are significantly different based on the diet of the tarantulas.
 
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Czalz

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Windchaser said:
The issue is not if the tarantula can digest the calcium, it is whether or not it causes problems with the strength of the exoskeleton.

I believe that Darrin is trying to get various exuviums run through a mass spectrometer to see if the levels of calcium and manganese are significantly different based on the diet of the tarantulas.

I do apologize, I took the topic as being more generalized, but it is clearly dealing with calcium. ;) My post really doesn't belong here. {D

I GUESS I COULD HAVE PAID MORE ATTENTION TO THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD.
 
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Marcelo

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Calcium Vs Gutloading

What I just try to post in my reply earlier with all the pharagraphs was only that If you do not know your pet not only chams or tarantulas, or scorpions amount of calcium they requiere, dont give calcium to them because you will kill your pet, acording to my experience.

Im not arguing Tarantulas need calcium or not, because I do not know the answer, im only a beguinner traying to learn more about T's.

But what I know is feeding your crikets properly (vegetables, fruits, etc), your T's will get the right amounts of vitamins, calcium, etc, etc, because the crikets already digested, procesed, and transformed the food.

And regarding to plants, it takes long time 6 to 10 months to process incectisides or pesticides, the process consist of change the peat most every month, your plant will basically eat the new soil and discharging the old one.
Again I do not know much about tarantulas. I dont know if they eat plants, but that is what I do with the plants I have in my chams terrariums.

Please dont misunderstand my point, im not comparing tarantulas with chameleons.

Cheers

Marcelo
 

Jaden

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A myth.

From what I've found (With my Ts.) is that calcium in Gut Load hasn't had a big affect on my Ts. None of mine have lost fangs nor had bad molts (Other than the usual. Some had bad molts but not near enough to blame Gut Load.). Most of my Ts I've raised from .25" slings (Which Gut Load is a water source.) to small Ts of 2" or more on Gut Load as a alternate water source. I don't just give them that (I also mist their cages.). So until I see proof from someone who's in the know it's a myth. Just like coffee stunts your growth. I know quite a few guys who drank coffee while growing up and are tall (6'4".). Myth...wives tale.
 
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Code Monkey

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Windchaser said:
I believe that Darrin is trying to get various exuviums run through a mass spectrometer to see if the levels of calcium and manganese are significantly different based on the diet of the tarantulas.
It is unlikely he'll find anything because he's looking after the fact. Calcium is such a trace component of the exuvium that it won't *likely* be incorporated at any higher/lower rate (since it's barely there at all). However, calcium, manganese, and other of these sorts of metals serve as cofactors for enzymatic processes. If too high of systemic calcium is affecting other co-factor levels then it is possible that the enzymatic processes responsible for hardening the new exocuticle and/or digesting the old inner exocuticle are being interfered with. Furthermore, since 90% of the old exuvium is actually digested prior to the moult, leaving only the chitinous layer and the very outer waxy epicuticle, most of the evidence is outright gone.

I would be far more interested in examining the hemolymph levels post-feeding for these various cofactor elements to see if calcium is spiking and/or driving down other levels. Additionally, the food boli from vertebrate prey should be compared to see just how much the spider is taking into its body in the first place. Ideally, the T is merely crapping out the calcium since it doesn't need it, the question is what happens if it is absorbing it. So, if you don't see spikes in calcium levels post-feeding of vertebrates and the food boli contain relatively high levels of their pre-mortem calcium, we could conclude it's not the bones causing the problems.
 

Windchaser

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Jaden said:
From what I've found (With my Ts.) is that calcium in Gut Load hasn't had a big affect on my Ts. None of mine have lost fangs nor had bad molts (Other than the usual. Some had bad molts but not near enough to blame Gut Load.). Most of my Ts I've raised from .25" slings (Which Gut Load is a water source.) to small Ts of 2" or more on Gut Load as a alternate water source. I don't just give them that (I also mist their cages.). So until I see proof from someone who's in the know it's a myth. Just like coffee stunts your growth. I know quite a few guys who drank coffee while growing up and are tall (6'4".). Myth...wives tale.
This is a flawed argument. Unless you are saying the you have observed large numbers of tarantulas of varying species over an extended period of time, including control groups, there is no way that you can claim that your observations disprove anything. You are free to believe that there is no correlation between increased calcium levels in a T's diet and fang loss, but you can hardly claim that based solely on your observations that it is a myth.

Just like one tall person who drinks coffee disproves any theory that coffee can affect someone's growth rate. (I have no idea if coffee does or does not affect growth rate, but a single data point will never prove or disprove anything.)
 

Jaden

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Windchaser said:
This is a flawed argument. Unless you are saying the you have observed large numbers of tarantulas of varying species over an extended period of time, including control groups, there is no way that you can claim that your observations disprove anything. You are free to believe that there is no correlation between increased calcium levels in a T's diet and fang loss, but you can hardly claim that based solely on your observations that it is a myth.

Just like one tall person who drinks coffee disproves any theory that coffee can affect someone's growth rate. (I have no idea if coffee does or does not affect growth rate, but a single data point will never prove or disprove anything.)
Well I can claim I've observed a large number (Around 50+.) and they were varied (Around 12+ speices.). The only parts I might not be able to claim is the extended period of time (Only 6 months.) and the control groups (Even that can be debated if you count a control group as being mine.). I never claimed my observations disproved anything. I was just stating my views from things I've done. The one point I will agree with you on is I can't prove or disprove it's a myth. That and I wanted a debate. ; D
 

Windchaser

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Code Monkey said:
It is unlikely he'll find anything because he's looking after the fact. Calcium is such a trace component of the exuvium that it won't *likely* be incorporated at any higher/lower rate (since it's barely there at all). However, calcium, manganese, and other of these sorts of metals serve as cofactors for enzymatic processes. If too high of systemic calcium is affecting other co-factor levels then it is possible that the enzymatic processes responsible for hardening the new exocuticle and/or digesting the old inner exocuticle are being interfered with. Furthermore, since 90% of the old exuvium is actually digested prior to the moult, leaving only the chitinous layer and the very outer waxy epicuticle, most of the evidence is outright gone.

I would be far more interested in examining the hemolymph levels post-feeding for these various cofactor elements to see if calcium is spiking and/or driving down other levels. Additionally, the food boli from vertebrate prey should be compared to see just how much the spider is taking into its body in the first place. Ideally, the T is merely crapping out the calcium since it doesn't need it, the question is what happens if it is absorbing it. So, if you don't see spikes in calcium levels post-feeding of vertebrates and the food boli contain relatively high levels of their pre-mortem calcium, we could conclude it's not the bones causing the problems.
Thanks for the additional information. This is very interesting. It would be nice to get more data on this issue in order to make a determination on way or the other.
 

Windchaser

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Jaden said:
Well I can claim I've observed a large number (Around 50+.) and they were varied (Around 12+ speices.). The only parts I might not be able to claim is the extended period of time (Only 6 months.) and the control groups (Even that can be debated if you count a control group as being mine.). I never claimed my observations disproved anything. I was just stating my views from things I've done. The one point I will agree with you on is I can't prove or disprove it's a myth. That and I wanted a debate. ; D
Well, based on these numbers you neither can claim large numbers or a large number of species. Given your numbers, assuming an even distribution, you have 4 animals of each species. Also, 12 species out of an approximate 850 to 900 species is not very significant either. It may be more statistically meaningful if they are all from a single genus. Statistically speaking though, you need numbers in the hundreds, preferably for each species study. Now collectively with observations from others, your observations can add to the data, but on their own they are not statistically significant.

One problem with looking at issues pertaining to tarantulas is that they grow slow and live long. Any thorough study done will require decades to to complete. In the meantime, the best we can do is hopefully compile the observations of many people and if what trends emerge.
 
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