Pamphobeteus sp. type II = CB'02 Pamphobeteus sp. "Golden-flame" ???

xenesthis

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Here is an item for discussion and debate. Are their any hobbyists on AB that bought my CB'02 Pamphobeteus sp. "Ecuadorian Golden-flame Birdeaters"? If so, and if you have adult females AND also have the the stock from two years ago "Pamphobeteus sp. Type II Ecuador" as sub-adult/adult females, how do they compare?

I have a 5" female CB'02 "Ecuadorian golden-flame" that is a dead ringer for the pic on the AB photo gallery of a sub-adult female Pamphobeteus sp. type II Ecuador.

It will be good to trade notes and observations about several Ecuadorian Pamphobeteus sp. that were made available to the U.S. hobby since 2001 that little or no locality was provided by the European exporters and little to none photos or descriptions.

Thanks.

Todd
 

M.F.Bagaturov

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Hello and seems so no discussion, Todd...
These different names to so-called "new" species are given by dealers like You, so nothing to discuss untill You'll be able to provide us with Your study of taxonomic characters for these both species of what do You want to compare.
untill it is nothin to discuss here...
 
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xenesthis

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Ecuadorian Pamphos

>These different names to so-called "new" species are given by dealers >like You, so nothing to discuss untill You'll be able to provide us with Your >study of taxonomic characters for these both species of what do You want >to compare.
>untill it is nothin to discuss here...

??? What's up with the tone here? I'm not the one that put the original "type I, II, II" on those Ecuadorian Pamphos. The European exporters did. Just out of curosity though, if you were sold three different Pamphobeteus spp. from Ecuador, how would you list them on a price list (when there is no locality info or description given) ?

Todd
 

becca81

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Todd,

You sold some in 2005 as potentially P. nigricolor. Is this what you're referring to?

Becca
 

xenesthis

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Ecuadorian Pamphos

Becca,

No. Those were sold to me as Pamphobeteus sp. "Ecuadorian Giant" in which ONLY the photo of the adult female resembled P. nigricolor. Who knows.

I'm referring to the CB'02 spiderlings out of Europe that I sold as "Ecuadorian Golden-flame". I believe they are the same species sold in recent years as "Pamphobeteus sp. type II Ecuador".

Todd
 

Crotalus

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Might not even be from Ecuador since animals are captured all around the neighboring countries and collected in for ex Ecuador and then shipped to dealers. So unless you know who collected your spiders dont count on that the country of origin is really what the label says.
 

Sunar

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He's asking for comparisons. I think he's smart enough to know the difference between dealer names and taxonomic names and the possibility they could be from elsewhere.

Sorry, Todd, wasn't even into T's in '02. :)

~Fred
 

xenesthis

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Give that man his prize!

Butta Bing! Fred's correct! That's all. Just looking for comparisions between appearance, taxonomical features, behavior, etc. We need this info to sort out the "Ecuadorian Pampho" ID mess. Thank you.

Todd
 

Crotalus

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He's asking for comparisons. I think he's smart enough to know the difference between dealer names and taxonomic names and the possibility they could be from elsewhere.

Sorry, Todd, wasn't even into T's in '02. :)

~Fred
He is yes but still, what good do it do to compare a few pictures online?
Send the spiders off to a taxonomist and you might get a better answer
 

xenesthis

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Pamphobeteus taxonomist?

Whose the current king of taxonomy of the genus Pamphobeteus?

Todd
 

syndicate

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yeah as alot of these species look so similiar..would be nice if some of them were described.i agree tho that comparing pics is probaly useless unless u have good shots of spermithicae(spelling?)or other key features that could seperate these sp
 

M.F.Bagaturov

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Hello!
??? What's up with the tone here?
Dunno Todd what have You found with "my tone"?
Don't You like my question?
I'ma just want to ask "what" and "how" do You and others want to study...
nothing more...

I'm not the one that put the original "type I, II, II" on those Ecuadorian Pamphos. The European exporters did.
Just out of curosity though, if you were sold three different Pamphobeteus spp. from Ecuador, how would you list them on a price list (when there is no locality info or description given) ?
Ah... realize... The usual and common answer is: "I will sold it the same name as I've bought it" - We always hear it from every dealer who sell tarantulas in the way they think (this way mostly based and dealing on the price they bought em) - under wrong names, the same species under the different names with the different price, etc.
Only a few dealers trying to arrange what the're selling and what for...
99.9% of em prefer not to mix with the correct ID and like we see above seems so that Bertani working for last 15 years on this group is very surprising You... khm... very strange - You're longer im hobby than me and last 10 years I knew that for sure, so You specially interesting on this group over last 10 years should knew that as well and have some knowledge about taxo features of this group...

But forget about it, here we go back to the thread...

I would like to know what these t's are really is, but have much limited knowledge in taxo, so, please, Todd and Sunar, what exactly should we compare? I would like to know why we think it is really Pampho's but not Vitalius, for example or anything else?
And what else we should look into these Pamphobeteus sp. "Ecuadorian Golden-flame Birdeaters" and "Pamphobeteus sp. Type II Ecuador"?

Whould You be so kind to educate me some...
Thanks in advance!
 

xenesthis

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Ecuadorian Pamphos mess

Mikhail,

Again, your tone or attitude here isn't being helpful.

You are doing a lot of complaining and finger-pointing, but how about answering the question I posed directly:

"Just out of curosity though, if you were sold three different Pamphobeteus spp. from Ecuador, how would you list them on a price list (when there is no locality info or description given) ?"

"Ah... realize... The usual and common answer is: "I will sold it the same name as I've bought it" - We always hear it from every dealer who sell tarantulas in the way they think (this way mostly based and dealing on the price they bought em) - under wrong names, the same species under the different names with the different price, etc."

- O.k. That's not an answer. I'm asking YOU, not other dealers. Don't just complain about the problem. Give a solution. What would you do in how to list it on stock list?

> You're longer im hobby than me and last 10 years I knew that for sure, >so You specially interesting on this group over last 10 years should knew >that as well and have some knowledge about taxo features of this group...

Your right and yes I know some taxo info, BUT unlike others that pretend to be or advertise themselves as wanna-be taxonomists, I do not. So, we are back to square one. We have several species of Pamphobeteus coming possibly from Ecuador with little or no locality info, description and sometimes even lacking photos of the adults and we need to share information (taxonomic features, behavior, descriptions, photos) in order to better determine if they are new species, a sub-species, geographical varient and if they could be determined to be an existing one.

Helping with the solution is the way to go here, not complaining and going in a circle.


Todd
 

M.F.Bagaturov

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Hello Todd!

Once again dunno what have You found with "my tone". :?

You are doing a lot of complaining and finger-pointing
seems so not me, but You...

O.k. That's not an answer. I'm asking YOU, not other dealers. Don't just complain about the problem. Give a solution. What would you do in how to list it on stock list?
I'm not a dealer and I don't buy these sp's and other unknown species from the unknown locale (what is the perspective with em?), sorry, so can't help You this way...
One thing just to tell You - do not buy these "unknowns from unknown-where" and all would be rigth.
And if You really want em to correctly ID'ed just make strong contact to people who makes em the profession of their lifes...
I don't think it is much hard to send from US to Brazil than from Russia to Germany indeed.

Your right and yes I know some taxo info, BUT unlike others that pretend to be or advertise themselves as wanna-be taxonomists, I do not.
Why?
You are diffident? Do not belive cos I know You're not.

So, we are back to square one. We have several species of Pamphobeteus coming possibly from Ecuador with little or no locality info, description and sometimes even lacking photos of the adults and we need to share information (taxonomic features, behavior, descriptions, photos) in order to better determine if they are new species, a sub-species, geographical varient and if they could be determined to be an existing one.

Nice situation...
But just think once: the situation goes as such because of you've made it so... who compel You to buy these "unknown from unknown-where"?
What do You do with it?
If You got it for your private collection - than it's o.k., if you're selling em to people what for, for money?
I see no reason for what else... sorry...

I'm sorry but this is looking alike from the beyond aside that You supporting the barbarians became step-by-step a barbarian Yourself...
I'm hope I wrong...

And if You knew some decent taxo features of Pamphos does You possess the question You have asked this thread are really have a deal with the something can shed the light on that species:

Here is an item for discussion and debate. Are their any hobbyists on AB that bought my CB'02 Pamphobeteus sp. "Ecuadorian Golden-flame Birdeaters"? If so, and if you have adult females AND also have the the stock from two years ago "Pamphobeteus sp. Type II Ecuador" as sub-adult/adult females, how do they compare?
?
So, ask You once again the question You have not answer above:
would like to know why we think it is really Pampho's but not Vitalius, for example or anything else?
And what else we should look into these Pamphobeteus sp. "Ecuadorian Golden-flame Birdeaters" and "Pamphobeteus sp. Type II Ecuador"?

Whould You be so kind to educate me some...
Thanks in advance!
 

xenesthis

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solutions needed, not complaints

Mikhail,

>I'm not a dealer and I don't buy these sp's and other unknown species >from the unknown locale (what is the perspective with em?), sorry, so >can't help You this way...

Then you shouldn't complain. When we don't know the locale, description and might not even have pics, how do you propose we list these Pamphobeteus sp. "correctly" on stock lists?

>And if You really want em to correctly ID'ed just make strong contact to >people who makes em the profession of their lifes...
>I don't think it is much hard to send from US to Brazil than from Russia to >Germany indeed.

It's not that easy for us here and also I don't know of too many theraphosid taxonomists that are enthusiastic about working with commericial dealers. We have three communities in our hobby: dealers/breeders, scientists and private hobbyists. I have yet to see many taxonomists work with with the dealers/breeders with the exception of Volker. Hopefully, this can change in the future and the results would be great for the private hobbyist. A new spider species comes along that the dealer imports, the taxonomist could identify it, confirm the species and/or describe it as a new species and then the dealer making the sale to the hobbyist sales a correctly identified spider. Sounds great in theory, but because the dealer/breeder and taxonomist communities haven't worked well together for various reasons, the hobbyist will continue to get "type I, II", etc. names.

Todd
 

Steve Nunn

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Your right and yes I know some taxo info, BUT unlike others that pretend to be or advertise themselves as wanna-be taxonomists, I do not.
Hello Todd,
Is "Golden Flame" the name you bought the spiders under, or is it another name you created??

Steve
 
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Steve Nunn

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It's not that easy for us here and also I don't know of too many theraphosid taxonomists that are enthusiastic about working with commericial dealers.
I wonder why? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :wall:

Some dealers are actually exceptionally helpful, Lee Ardern, Kelly Swift and Martin Gamache immediately spring to my mind (and there are more), those guys are always eager to work with taxonomists/wanna-be taxonomists to clear up any unknowns. Others are just plain nasty and abusive and not worth coping the crap to even offer help. Shame, because the customers are the ones who pay in the end.
 
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xenesthis

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Intro Steve Nunn..?

Steve,

I'm not sure what brought your attention here except that you might have thought I meant you explicitly when I said "wanna-be taxonomist". Sorry, I did not single you out. IF I choose to, I'd write your name. Since I did not, what purpose are you providing to this thread? You want a flame war? We've done that. There is nothing positive that will arise from that.

How about actually adding *helpful* comments, ideas and solutions to this thread? When you do that, sure I'll answer your questions and maybe, just maybe we can get something accomplished here. How about it?

Todd
 

Steve Nunn

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Sounds good to me Todd. I actually edited out a comment in my first post that could have been taken as offensive, no point to doing it again, so I got rid of it. You are quite right, no need for pointless flame.

Now that's over, did you create the name "Golden Flame" and if so, why would you add another name to an unknown??

Steve
 
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