H. Incei communal - inputs pls

Bosing · Jun 6, 2010

Guys, i need your help. I plan on setting up a communal tank for H. Incei. I have 9 slings in separate vials, all feeding with b. Lateralis nymphs. As I start to set up, pls help answer the following questions.

1. Is 9 slings good enough or too many/few?
2. Tank size?
3. When i put them in do they automatically cohabitate? Anything I need to do to them as preparation?

Thanks.

Warren Bautista · Jun 6, 2010

9 slings is a pretty good starting point, if it were me I would have an even number, but that's besides the point.

.

For 9, I would use a 10 gallon, you don't want to make it too large.

Being semisocial, they may make burrows within a close vicinity to each other, but you never know.

syndicate · Jun 6, 2010

Also make sure to keep them well fed!They will munch each other if there isn't enough food present..Or at least they did in my setup!

xhexdx · Jun 6, 2010

Are they sacmates? You say slings, but how big are they?

You're better off starting with sacmates who have not been separated.

a 10-gallon is way too big to start off. If they're ~1", I'd start them in a deli cup.

DreadLobster · Jun 6, 2010

Yeah I was gonna say the fact that they're in separate vials is probably not the best way to start... Anyone on here who's had a successful communal set up has said its best if they're sac mates that were never separated.

I've also heard that smaller is better for the enclosure, so they don't establish their own territory.

However, all that being said, I had 6 h. incei from one sac, never separated, in one small enclosure, and one day there were only 3 of them... so I guess its kinda a gamble either way :?

Good luck! Give us updates on how it turns out... I separated my 3 remaining ones, hoping to get 2 females and a male once their old enough for me to tell... then I can try breeding and start all over.

AbraxasComplex · Jun 6, 2010

DreadLobster said:
Yeah I was gonna say the fact that they're in separate vials is probably not the best way to start... Anyone on here who's had a successful communal set up has said its best if they're sac mates that were never separated.

I've also heard that smaller is better for the enclosure, so they don't establish their own territory.

Actually with H.incei the sacmates thing isn't exactly correct. Sure it allows for higher success, but all of my communals work well right away. I have mixed in the past different sizes and bloodlines together in one tank. Even did so with 2 different bloodlines of H.incei "gold" with no problems so far. I've even done this with unrelated Heterothele villosella and Heterothele gabonensis as well with much success.

As for allowing them not to build territories this is also a half truth. I pack my overly large tanks with copious amounts of hiding spots by layering broken pieces of cork bark and driftwood. By doing this they all develop their own webbed areas and in time interact positively. This allows them to build up slowly a tolerance for the tarantulas around them. Holothele incei are usually a flight (and not fight) species and will bolt if a scrap is about to occur. By giving them so many physical and visual barriers an accidental intruder can wander off quickly and hide with out being harmed. As soon as they start connecting webs, this is usually the time where the colony has settled in and accepted one another.

By over-packing them you force them to interact and you bypass the period where intraspecific tolerance builds up. Over-packing creates an unhealthy environment right away, not allowing for the expansion of a colony, so you continuously have to grab bigger tanks which results in stress and restarting the forced intraspecific tolerance. I started 10 spiderlings in a 40 gallon tank, the colony is now at least 100 strong. Yes cannibalism occurs from time to time since I only feed a fixed amount of food, but I also remove 50+ a year of various sizes to sell to people.

So to answer the questions of the original poster with several years of experience and experimentation with communal tanks:

1. Doesn't matter. You can start with 2, or 100.

2. For 9, 10+ gallons works. The only issue is that since they are so small it is hard to keep track of them at that size. So the recommendation to start them together in a smaller container is a valid one, but only so you can monitor their feeding habits. Plus you can prekill a large meal and they will all move to feed on it. I suggest you start with a 5 gallon, and when they reach about 1/2-3/4'' move them to a 20, 30, or 40 gallon.

3. Too small a space = Maybe, Lots of room = Maybe. Every tarantula has little perks and reacts to stimuli usually in a predictable manner for their species. In rare cases they do not due to an unforeseen variable. Cannibalism will occur no matter how successful a communal tank is. Be prepared to have only 60-75% survival rates to adulthood since some may consume another, a bad molt could happen, or a feeder bug munches them. I have had 95% survival rates in the past with the original batch (started with 30 slings and lost 1 or 2) when I used the overly large tank approach. By giving them lots of room you allow them to naturally do the preparation work for you and it is less stressful and natural for the Tarantulas. By using a small tank you force them cohabitate and remove the natural process that they can handle themselves. Either way, in a large tank or a small one, overcrowding of a new colony or an old established one does result in agitation (especially of sub adults and adults) and the flight response is no longer a viable option.

billopelma · Jun 6, 2010

I have some long term communal setups that I've tried a lot of various things with and so far see no rhyme or reason to it. Big area's and small, dense populations or sparse, related/unrelated..., it's still a mixed bag of successes and failures.
The one method that I would say that is closest to a guarantee is to raise some all separately, then breed them and let the moms raise the slings. There just are so many that the losses, if any, wouldn't matter. Takes some patience, obviously. When I did my first pair up's it was only weeks to when I saw slings.
The most recent batch that just showed up in one of the small setups hasn't had a mature male in it since last fall. Go figure...

My larger setup started with eleven slings plus mom, two of my small setups started with six slings each, all now have have a third generation going.
A very small setup with five that I had put aside just to sell but then didn't, ended up with a single inhabitant. Another similar set was fine and eventually got tossed into the bigger unrelated setup and I didn't see any obvious problems there either. I have seen moms eating slings, slings eating slings, and mature males eating slings, all very rarely though.

A friend who got half of a breeding loan from me put them all in a big exo terra and has since put in unrelated stock and things seem to be going fine there too, though it's again impossible to say what goes on in there in any detail.

So... Anything you do as a communal may or may not work out. If I had nine slings I'd probably do six together and hedge my bets with the other three kept individually.

Bill

varanidfan · Jun 6, 2010

I started with a dozen slings in a 30 gal tank. The tank has stacks and stack of bark, and wood, and very deep substrate. After a year I had 3.3 adults left and they were all sitting on sacs or already had young in their burrows. I since moved the communal to a 40 gal reptile breeder tank with a custom lid and the adults have produced again. Well at least one of them has becuase I have 2nd or 3rd nstar slings running around in there.

9 is plenty, I'd offer more room and more cover and too much food. I fed my communal almost every 2 or 3 days.

scar is my t · Jun 6, 2010

Should 5 slings in a shoe box sized rubber maid container work? Should I put each one in a different area to start? Is this really a gamble or are the chances of success relatively good?

Bosing · Jun 7, 2010

wow. Thanks for taking time out guys. To answer some questions, i have 9 slings of about 1.5-2cm which I assume all come from a common sack.

So after I setup a good sized tank for 5 slings, do I introduce them one by one? Do I need to wait for minutes before putting in the next? Do I place them near or far from each other? I also plan to put in lateralis nymphs prior to introducing the slings. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance. Really want to be sure before I push through minimize casualties.

AbraxasComplex · Jun 7, 2010

Bosing said:
wow. Thanks for taking time out guys. To answer some questions, i have 9 slings of about 1.5-2cm which I assume all come from a common sack.

So after I setup a good sized tank for 5 slings, do I introduce them one by one? Do I need to wait for minutes before putting in the next? Do I place them near or far from each other? I also plan to put in lateralis nymphs prior to introducing the slings. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance. Really want to be sure before I push through minimize casualties.

That's quite a large size, since they reach maturity by the 1''-1.5'' range. You could start with a much larger tank.

Add them all at once, just don't throw them on top of each other. So you can place them near each other or far apart. And yes keeping them well fed is your best chance of success.

scar is my t · Jun 7, 2010

AbraxasComplex said:
That's quite a large size, since they reach maturity by the 1''-1.5'' range. You could start with a much larger tank.

Add them all at once, just don't throw them on top of each other. So you can place them near each other or far apart. And yes keeping them well fed is your best chance of success.

How often and how much should you feed them though? is 2 crickets each spider a week good?

Warren Bautista · Jun 7, 2010

If it was me, I would keep a constant supply of roaches in there, possibly enough to have a couple drop some nymphs so you don't have to worry about missing a feeding and cannibalism.

Bosing · Jun 7, 2010

Warren Bautista said:
If it was me, I would keep a constant supply of roaches in there, possibly enough to have a couple drop some nymphs so you don't have to worry about missing a feeding and cannibalism.

thanks. I'd probably do that too! not unless those guys munch on the mommy roach before she lays her egg...

varanidfan · Jun 7, 2010

Yes, constant supply of roaches. I like to look in the cage and be able to find nymphs or appropirately sized prey at ALL times. Casulties will happen, that is almost certain, so dont worry about it too much focus more on the set up and food supply.

AbraxasComplex · Jun 7, 2010

varanidfan said:
Yes, constant supply of roaches. I like to look in the cage and be able to find nymphs or appropirately sized prey at ALL times. Casulties will happen, that is almost certain, so dont worry about it too much focus more on the set up and food supply.

I like the set up. I also do fake backgrounds and fake rocks for all my tanks. I'll post pictures of my established H.incei tank as soon as possible.

AbraxasComplex · Jun 7, 2010

So my windows kept reflecting off the tank and obscuring half of it, so I had to angle the photo. Also I didn't use flash due to the reflection on the glass as well so you cannot see the background.

Also the orange substance on the substrate is shredded carrot. That is thrown in once a week to deter feeder bugs from munching on the plants and baby tarantulas.

Either way the point of the tank is to create as much usable surface area as possible. If done right you can take the surface area available in a tank and at least triple it by sloping the substrate towards the back of the tank, making multiple hollow levels with cork bark/driftwood, and having a 3D background. This allows a colony to grow and expand as well as bring wayward or cruising tarantulas to the front of the tank for your viewing pleasure.

varanidfan · Jun 8, 2010

Looks good. My new larger communal is just starting to show extensive webbing again. The pic was taken before I put them in it. Cheers.

DreadLobster · Jun 9, 2010

AbraxasComplex said:
Actually with H.incei the sacmates thing isn't exactly correct. Sure it allows for higher success, but all of my communals work well right away. I have mixed in the past different sizes and bloodlines together in one tank. Even did so with 2 different bloodlines of H.incei "gold" with no problems so far. I've even done this with unrelated Heterothele villosella and Heterothele gabonensis as well with much success.

As for allowing them not to build territories this is also a half truth. I pack my overly large tanks with copious amounts of hiding spots by layering broken pieces of cork bark and driftwood. By doing this they all develop their own webbed areas and in time interact positively. This allows them to build up slowly a tolerance for the tarantulas around them. Holothele incei are usually a flight (and not fight) species and will bolt if a scrap is about to occur. By giving them so many physical and visual barriers an accidental intruder can wander off quickly and hide with out being harmed. As soon as they start connecting webs, this is usually the time where the colony has settled in and accepted one another.

By over-packing them you force them to interact and you bypass the period where intraspecific tolerance builds up. Over-packing creates an unhealthy environment right away, not allowing for the expansion of a colony, so you continuously have to grab bigger tanks which results in stress and restarting the forced intraspecific tolerance. I started 10 spiderlings in a 40 gallon tank, the colony is now at least 100 strong. Yes cannibalism occurs from time to time since I only feed a fixed amount of food, but I also remove 50+ a year of various sizes to sell to people.

So to answer the questions of the original poster with several years of experience and experimentation with communal tanks:

1. Doesn't matter. You can start with 2, or 100.

2. For 9, 10+ gallons works. The only issue is that since they are so small it is hard to keep track of them at that size. So the recommendation to start them together in a smaller container is a valid one, but only so you can monitor their feeding habits. Plus you can prekill a large meal and they will all move to feed on it. I suggest you start with a 5 gallon, and when they reach about 1/2-3/4'' move them to a 20, 30, or 40 gallon.

3. Too small a space = Maybe, Lots of room = Maybe. Every tarantula has little perks and reacts to stimuli usually in a predictable manner for their species. In rare cases they do not due to an unforeseen variable. Cannibalism will occur no matter how successful a communal tank is. Be prepared to have only 60-75% survival rates to adulthood since some may consume another, a bad molt could happen, or a feeder bug munches them. I have had 95% survival rates in the past with the original batch (started with 30 slings and lost 1 or 2) when I used the overly large tank approach. By giving them lots of room you allow them to naturally do the preparation work for you and it is less stressful and natural for the Tarantulas. By using a small tank you force them cohabitate and remove the natural process that they can handle themselves. Either way, in a large tank or a small one, overcrowding of a new colony or an old established one does result in agitation (especially of sub adults and adults) and the flight response is no longer a viable option.

Thanks for this. Good to know. I guess it varies by species. Cause Talkenlate has had success with Pokies by keeping them right on top of each other. I assumed that idea would be the best but yours makes sense to me too. Well... Back to the drawing board I guess

AbraxasComplex · Jun 9, 2010

DreadLobster said:
Thanks for this. Good to know. I guess it varies by species. Cause Talkenlate has had success with Pokies by keeping them right on top of each other. I assumed that idea would be the best but yours makes sense to me too. Well... Back to the drawing board I guess

Pokies are like Avics. Their "communal" nature is not exactly communal. It is more of a tolerance due to evolving adaptations for surviving on high up vertical spaces. Why start a fight 30 feet off the ground if that means both of the participants falling to their deaths? They tolerate one another due to the decreased surface area. So in order to replicate this you have to overcrowd them and decrease their space. This is induced tolerance. I'm sure if you had a greenhouse and threw in a bunch of pokies and only had one or two trees you would find a few living in close proximity, but not because you forced their tolerance. Their tolerance would be due to their interaction in a natural environment with limited desirable surface area. They chose to interact naturally instead of being forced to interact in that instinctual manner.

Terrestrial communals are different in the social regard. They do not have the limited surface area of arboreal species. The extended long term maternal instincts of many social terrestrials allows for a female to do an evolutionary energy trade. She produces less offspring (in comparison to many solitary species) and that preserved energy is used in caring for one or more batches of young until the young are willing to disperse (I've seen half sized juveniles still living with adults in the captive setting). This creates a higher survival rate and cannot be done with out increased intraspecific tolerance. The tolerance in terrestrial species, from what I've surmised, is not spurred on by surface area related issues, but by environmental stimuli permitting an evolutionary trend that allows for specific instincts to promote increased mutual survival.

H. Incei communal - inputs pls

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