I can't get rid of this ruddy mold!!!

curiousme · Nov 8, 2010

Ictinike said:
No it's not really wrong but what you use to wet down the peat can change it's acidity or wash it away. I can't remember who (well known here) stated examples of using tap water that had been treated with chemicals may reduce the acidity to the point it's pretty neutral and much of a acidic tendencies are literally washed away.

Interesting and definitely food for thought and work for the search engine.

I can't argue and since I've converted over to straight sifted peat, using distilled water for wetting, I've had a big reduction in any possible mold and mites. While this may just be coincidence you can't argue with the science of it and I can see an acidic reducing ability if you don't know what's in your water.

We have actually just switched to a mixture from all peat, but we rarely have problems with mold to begin with and don't sweat the mites and springtails.

We actually have the water report from our water company. hmmmm....... thank you for bringing this up. My curious gears are a movin'!

AbraCadaver · Nov 8, 2010

I had totally forgotten about this thread, but the good news is that the mold is gone! I don't know if it's really possible, but I am still left with the impression it was on the spiders themselves, as when they molted, the problem went away..

Could they have been carrying spores in their bristles?

Poxicator · Nov 8, 2010

Mould and fungus spores are airborne, we breathe them in, they rest on various surfaces and travel in a variety of ways, they are ubiquitous.
Removing your substrate, wood or furnishing will merely be a temporary solution, you need to look at the bigger picture.

Avics seem to fair better in captivity on much drier conditions than what they are found in the wild, I'd suggest moving over to a drier enclosure and only spray the webbing lightly, once a week. I'd also suggest elevating your water bowl as they're not often found at substrate level.

The amount of mould you have is not alarming but its worthwhile trying to remedy this. I suggest you remove just the surface substrate, scrape a credit card lightly over it and remove that only.

Your ventilation is probably at the top but to keep an enclosure this moist (going by your pic) you need some surface level ventilation. If that's not possible there's a few quick remedies for this particular enclosure:
1. pour some very dry substrate directly on top of your existing substrate, this will help absorb some of the excess moisture.
2. put a heatmat under your enclosure and put the enclosure on stilts (a couple of pieces of wood) to provide heat to dry the substrate and utilise it for increased humidity that benefits moults.
3. Change your lid to curtain netting, fishing netting or nylon lights to allow a greater flow of air, just for the duration of this remedy.

To answer your question of the mould being carried by the tarantula, yes its quite probable in the same way that a bee transfers pollen. But it wouldnt be infected by it. And, it would merely transfer the spores, the spores themselves need to find an appropriate habitat, your enclosure is just what its looking for

AbraCadaver · Nov 8, 2010

Well, as I said, the enclosures was never soaking wet. They were being misted lightly. BUt I have stopped misting all together now for my adults, as they're quite happy enough with just a waterdish. But the mold went away when I was still misting lightly, only change was changing substrate, and the spiders molting. But it doesn't really matter anymore, as I have absolutley no mold issues at the moment.

Poxicator · Nov 8, 2010

How often do/did you mist?

AbraCadaver · Nov 8, 2010

I used to mist once a week.

Stan Schultz · Nov 9, 2010

AbraCadaver said:
... So, in her new enclosure, I've gotten mold, ...

... What should I do here? ...

You are not the first one with this problem, nor will you be the last.

Look for the gray bar across the top of this webpage. Look for the <Search> link. If your browser supports separate tabs, right-click the link. If not, just click it. Then click "Advanced search."

In the "Keywords" box, copy-and-paste or type

mold OR fungus

In the "Username" box copy-and-paste or type

pikaia

Be sure to retain the caps in the keyword's "OR."

Relax. There're only 26 hits to wade through.

If you want to read differing opinions merely redo the search without the Pikaia part. But, you'd better clear your schedule, put on another pot of coffee, or stock up on your favorite other beverage, because you'll have a lot of reading to do (250+ hits)!

Best of luck with your fuzzy little mold thingies. Enjoy your tarantula too!

spidersnstuff · Nov 29, 2010

curiousme said:
What do you mean by infected? Do you mean that the T itself could possibly be molding?

I have read threads on that, but it is able to be seen(as far as I know/ read, never experienced it myself) and the OP said nothing about the T looking odd; just that it was in premolt.:? Also, wouldn't drying the T out when it could actually be in premolt, possibly cause harm if you're wrong and it tries to molt?

I am wondering what caused this leap in logic and am finding myself puzzled. Perhaps you could help me understand it a bit better?

Hey sorry about not posting recently, think about it, people get fungal infections, (gross I know,) all the time. Open sores, left over bits of food, as long as the environment permits, could cause a fungal infection. I've seen if happen to frogs, and tarantulas "drying them out," doesn't really mean let the tarantula go "dry" or without hydration, just making sure their surroundings are definately not wet, while still providing a water source, which water can be taken in orally, sorry for the wait on clarification.

Stan Schultz · Nov 29, 2010

Since we're revisiting this thread I'll chime in here, something I should have done earlier but didn't have the time.

curiousme said:
... wouldn't drying the T out when it could actually be in premolt, possibly cause harm if you're wrong and it tries to molt? ...

This is one of several myths perpetuated within the tarantula keeping hobby. I'm not sure how it ever got started (Almost certainly by someone who didn't read the book and who understood little or nothing of tarantula physiology.), but it's proving to be beastly hard to eradicate.

The fact is that tarantulas come from the factory with a waxy layer on their exoskeletons that effectively seals them off from their environment as far as the transpiration of water is concerned. (There is some question about the permeability of their book lungs and the thin membranes in their leg joints, but these are probably not terribly significant so we'll ignore them for now.)

Under most circumstances, most captive tarantulas and a lot of wild ones require very little water to survive because they're almost hermetically sealed against water loss by this waxy layer. (Did you catch all those qualifiers? They are always exceptions to statements like this!) They gain most of any extra water they require as part of their food, and as metabolically produced water as they digest and process carbohydrates in their tissues. And, this has prompted some enthusiasts who keep deep desert species (e.g., G. rosea, the Chilean rose tarantula, and A. chalcodes, the desert blond tarantula, P. murinus, the Usumbura baboon or Orange Bitey Thing - OBT) to not bother supplying them with water dishes. (For my reckoning, this is a lot like playing Russian roulette with your valuable pets, but ...)

At this point someone usually pops up with, "But, what about the water that is slowly lost through the book lungs and the leg joint membranes?" That's where water held in the bodies of their prey, metabolic water, and the occasional sip from the water dish become important. This is especially true in a cage because the tarantula has little or no ability to change its environment (e.g., dig a deeper burrow, seal the mouth of the burrow, move to another location) to protect itself. The enthusiast must supply auxiliary support in the form of the aforementioned water dish.

Thus, whether or not you keep a molting tarantula in a damp cage or a dry one is largely irrelevant as long as the tarantula has ready access to a water dish because that is just about the only way it has of topping off its water supply if it needs to. It's not going to absorb any significant amount of water through its body wall. Making most tarantulas live in a damp cage is a lot like making you sleep in a wet bed, and for no good reason!

Tarantulas probably (Those modifiers again!) have trouble molting either because they are too old and slow to get out of the old exoskeleton before the rings around the leg joints on the new exoskeleton begin to harden, or because there was an injury that produced either an internal scab or scar tissue that effectively glued them into their old exoskeleton. Another possible reason, at least for the very young ones, is that they suffer from some sort of developmental or congenital malformation or infirmity that prevents them from escaping the old exuvium in time.

To convince yourself that this is true, simply examine a freshly cast off exuvium. Even if the tarantula had trouble molting, the inside of the old exoskeleton fairly glistens with moisture. There was no lack of water, even in a dry cage.

Having said all this, there is nothing wrong with dampening the substrate and reducing ventilation to raise the cage's humidity WHILE THE TARANTULA IS IN PREMOLT if you have justifiable reason for doing so. (Other than that some brain damaged care sheet told you to!) As long as you dry the cage out again as soon as possible after the molt to forestall infections and infestations, no harm will result. Just don't forget!

Lastly, there are a few tarantulas that must be kept in a high relative humidity to thrive, at least as freshly imported animals. These species apparently have not yet had the opportunity to develop that waxy layer, or a characteristic of the species is that it normally doesn't develop a heavy waxy layer in nature and the imported individuals require a lengthy acclimatization period to adjust to drier conditions. Among them are -

Theraphosa blondi, the goliath birdeater (But, I don't know about the other two kinds of Theraphosa.)

Members of the African genus of so-called baboon tarantulas, Hysterocrates.

Members of the South American genus Ephebopus, the so-called skeleton tarantulas.

There are others, but a complete list escapes me, and many species that are touted as requiring a damp cage (e.g., genus Haplopelma) really don't. (Another enthusiast's myth.)

Also, be aware that cage bred and raised individuals of these and other species often do not require very damp cages because they developed the waxy layer as they grew in captivity in response to a lower ambient humidity.

Enjoy your little, premolt buddy!

Kirk · Nov 30, 2010

Pikaia said:
Since we're revisiting this thread I'll chime in here, something I should have done earlier but didn't have the time.

Great overview, Stan!

Stan Schultz · Nov 30, 2010

Kirk said:
Great overview, Stan!

"We aims to please"

Actually, we aims to keep you from killing your tarantula!

And, many thanks!

curiousme · Nov 30, 2010

Pikaia said:
Since we're revisiting this thread I'll chime in here, something I should have done earlier but didn't have the time.

This is one of several myths perpetuated within the tarantula keeping hobby. I'm not sure how it ever got started (Almost certainly by someone who didn't read the book and who understood little or nothing of tarantula physiology.), but it's proving to be beastly hard to eradicate.

Good to know that this is also a myth.

The fact is that tarantulas come from the factory with a waxy layer on their exoskeletons that effectively seals them off from their environment as far as the transpiration of water is concerned. (There is some question about the permeability of their book lungs and the thin membranes in their leg joints, but these are probably not terribly significant so we'll ignore them for now.)

This is the epicuticle that you speak of, correct?

...At this point someone usually pops up with, "But, what about the water that is slowly lost through the book lungs and the leg joint membranes?" That's where water held in the bodies of their prey, metabolic water, and the occasional sip from the water dish become important. This is especially true in a cage because the tarantula has little or no ability to change its environment (e.g., dig a deeper burrow, seal the mouth of the burrow, move to another location) to protect itself. The enthusiast must supply auxiliary support in the form of the aforementioned water dish.

Thus, whether or not you keep a molting tarantula in a damp cage or a dry one is largely irrelevant as long as the tarantula has ready access to a water dish because that is just about the only way it has of topping off its water supply if it needs to. It's not going to absorb any significant amount of water through its body wall. Making most tarantulas live in a damp cage is a lot like making you sleep in a wet bed, and for no good reason!

I realize that they will neither lose, nor absorb water through their exoskeleton and did not think that was the reason to up the humidity for a molt. Honestly though, it is such a commonly given bit of advice to up the humidity for a molt, that we have simply always done so. Since it isn't something that will hurt the tarantula, we didn't really question the advice, so the reasoning out why it is given as advice, hasn't really been pondered upon too hard. I guess in the back of my head I thought it would somehow help the spider to extricate itself from the old exoskeleton..... though that also seems a bit silly to me now.

To convince yourself that this is true, simply examine a freshly cast off exuvium. Even if the tarantula had trouble molting, the inside of the old exoskeleton fairly glistens with moisture. There was no lack of water, even in a dry cage.

We have never pulled a 'fresh' molt, so I haven't had the pleasure of seeing that.

....Having said all this, there is nothing wrong with dampening the substrate and reducing ventilation to raise the cage's humidity WHILE THE TARANTULA IS IN PREMOLT if you have justifiable reason for doing so....

What would be a justifiable reason, just for curiosity's sake?

...Also, be aware that cage bred and raised individuals of these and other species often do not require very damp cages because they developed the waxy layer as they grew in captivity in response to a lower ambient humidity.

Good point, and thank you for this well written and informative post.

Kirk · Nov 30, 2010

Already twice today I've linked Stan's statement to other threads. Given the prevalence of the humidity/water availability issue, I suggest that Stan's post be made a sticky.

Pikaia said:
Since we're revisiting this thread I'll chime in here, something I should have done earlier but didn't have the time.

This is one of several myths perpetuated within the tarantula keeping hobby. I'm not sure how it ever got started (Almost certainly by someone who didn't read the book and who understood little or nothing of tarantula physiology.), but it's proving to be beastly hard to eradicate.

The fact is that tarantulas come from the factory with a waxy layer on their exoskeletons that effectively seals them off from their environment as far as the transpiration of water is concerned. (There is some question about the permeability of their book lungs and the thin membranes in their leg joints, but these are probably not terribly significant so we'll ignore them for now.)

Under most circumstances, most captive tarantulas and a lot of wild ones require very little water to survive because they're almost hermetically sealed against water loss by this waxy layer. (Did you catch all those qualifiers? They are always exceptions to statements like this!) They gain most of any extra water they require as part of their food, and as metabolically produced water as they digest and process carbohydrates in their tissues. And, this has prompted some enthusiasts who keep deep desert species (e.g., G. rosea, the Chilean rose tarantula, and A. chalcodes, the desert blond tarantula, P. murinus, the Usumbura baboon or Orange Bitey Thing - OBT) to not bother supplying them with water dishes. (For my reckoning, this is a lot like playing Russian roulette with your valuable pets, but ...)

At this point someone usually pops up with, "But, what about the water that is slowly lost through the book lungs and the leg joint membranes?" That's where water held in the bodies of their prey, metabolic water, and the occasional sip from the water dish become important. This is especially true in a cage because the tarantula has little or no ability to change its environment (e.g., dig a deeper burrow, seal the mouth of the burrow, move to another location) to protect itself. The enthusiast must supply auxiliary support in the form of the aforementioned water dish.

Thus, whether or not you keep a molting tarantula in a damp cage or a dry one is largely irrelevant as long as the tarantula has ready access to a water dish because that is just about the only way it has of topping off its water supply if it needs to. It's not going to absorb any significant amount of water through its body wall. Making most tarantulas live in a damp cage is a lot like making you sleep in a wet bed, and for no good reason!

Tarantulas probably (Those modifiers again!) have trouble molting either because they are too old and slow to get out of the old exoskeleton before the rings around the leg joints on the new exoskeleton begin to harden, or because there was an injury that produced either an internal scab or scar tissue that effectively glued them into their old exoskeleton. Another possible reason, at least for the very young ones, is that they suffer from some sort of developmental or congenital malformation or infirmity that prevents them from escaping the old exuvium in time.

To convince yourself that this is true, simply examine a freshly cast off exuvium. Even if the tarantula had trouble molting, the inside of the old exoskeleton fairly glistens with moisture. There was no lack of water, even in a dry cage.

Having said all this, there is nothing wrong with dampening the substrate and reducing ventilation to raise the cage's humidity WHILE THE TARANTULA IS IN PREMOLT if you have justifiable reason for doing so. (Other than that some brain damaged care sheet told you to!) As long as you dry the cage out again as soon as possible after the molt to forestall infections and infestations, no harm will result. Just don't forget!

Lastly, there are a few tarantulas that must be kept in a high relative humidity to thrive, at least as freshly imported animals. These species apparently have not yet had the opportunity to develop that waxy layer, or a characteristic of the species is that it normally doesn't develop a heavy waxy layer in nature and the imported individuals require a lengthy acclimatization period to adjust to drier conditions. Among them are -

Theraphosa blondi, the goliath birdeater (But, I don't know about the other two kinds of Theraphosa.)

Members of the African genus of so-called baboon tarantulas, Hysterocrates.

Members of the South American genus Ephebopus, the so-called skeleton tarantulas.

There are others, but a complete list escapes me, and many species that are touted as requiring a damp cage (e.g., genus Haplopelma) really don't. (Another enthusiast's myth.)

Also, be aware that cage bred and raised individuals of these and other species often do not require very damp cages because they developed the waxy layer as they grew in captivity in response to a lower ambient humidity.

Enjoy your little, premolt buddy!

curiousme · Nov 30, 2010

Kirk said:
Already twice today I've linked Stan's statement to other threads. Given the prevalence of the humidity/water availability issue, I suggest that Stan's post be made a sticky.

I agree, I have linked it already myself.

pato_chacoana · Nov 30, 2010

Nice post Stan ! Really good.

While ecdysis is taking place, to me it's common sense to note that the process will occur faster with 80% relative humidity than with 30%. This is a very delicate time for a tarantula, hence a faster ecdysis, is better than a slower one. The fluids the spider uses to break the old exoskeleton will take longer to dry out. I'm not saying that this will make any important difference in captivity... but def. in the wild! I also keep an eye on old specimens and big ones such as Theraphosa.

Cheers,
Pato

Stan Schultz · Nov 30, 2010

pato_chacoana said:
Nice post Stan ! Really good.

While ecdysis is taking place, to me it's common sense to note that the process will occur faster with 80% relative humidity than with 30%. This is a very delicate time for a tarantula, hence a faster ecdysis, is better than a slower one. The fluids the spider uses to break the old exoskeleton will take longer to dry out. I'm not saying that this will make any important difference in captivity... but def. in the wild! I also keep an eye on old specimens and big ones such as Theraphosa.

Cheers,
Pato

I agree. That's why I included the paragraph about temporarily dampening the substrate during molting.

AudreyElizabeth · Nov 30, 2010

I hate to sound like the novice chiming in, but, I am always wondering about the water dish dilemma. I provide a water dish until the tenant decides to continually dump substrate into it. I have had specimens within a matter of two days bury and eradicate a full, fresh water dish. I dig it out, clean it, replace it, only to have it happen again. Is this a seasonal thing? An individual thing? A genus or species preference? When I have a tarantula that does this, I eventually take it out completely and water a corner of the substrate once a week or so. I have two specimens that have survived quite nicely this way for about 7 to 8 years. Should I be digging up a water dish once a week when the owner seems so intent on burying it?
An honest question......
Thanks, Audrey

Lorum · Dec 1, 2010

pato_chacoana said:
While ecdysis is taking place, to me it's common sense to note that the process will occur faster with 80% relative humidity than with 30%.

+1

I have noted, in some cases, than some T's in advanced premolt seem to be "uncomfortable". In those cases (and I don't really know if it works) I slightly raise the humidity in the enclosure, and they usually molt within a day or two.

I know internal hydration is more important, but sometimes it just seems like if they "prefer" to molt when humidity is higher in their enclosures (remember T's molting in their water dishes? Hehe). I'm not in the "raise the humidity before each molt" side, but I think it is important to observe T's behavior prior to a molt.

I just wanted to mention that (well, after Mr. Stan's great post,:clap: maybe is not very important).

Stan Schultz · Dec 1, 2010

AudreyElizabeth said:
I hate to sound like the novice chiming in, but, I am always wondering about the water dish dilemma. I provide a water dish until the tenant decides to continually dump substrate into it. I have had specimens within a matter of two days bury and eradicate a full, fresh water dish. I dig it out, clean it, replace it, only to have it happen again. Is this a seasonal thing? An individual thing? A genus or species preference? When I have a tarantula that does this, I eventually take it out completely and water a corner of the substrate once a week or so. I have two specimens that have survived quite nicely this way for about 7 to 8 years. Should I be digging up a water dish once a week when the owner seems so intent on burying it?
An honest question......
Thanks, Audrey

First, Audrey, I wouldn't think badly about myself as a novice if I'd had several tarantulas for 7 to 8 years. You're doing just fine, girl!

Those tarantulas that dig in captivity often bury the water dish, and everybody has their own system for dealing with the problem. This is especially true of the inveterate diggers like Pelinobius muticus, the king baboon (formerly Citharischius crawshayi).

Rest assured, however, that when you supply a water dish to them, at 3:00 AM, while you're sound asleep, they sneak out and quietly drink to capacity when they need water. THEN, they fill it with dirt!

Enjoy your little Tonka Toy buddy!

Stan Schultz · Dec 1, 2010

Lorum said:
... I know internal hydration is more important, but sometimes it just seems like if they "prefer" to molt when humidity is higher in their enclosures (remember T's molting in their water dishes? Hehe). I'm not in the "raise the humidity before each molt" side, but I think it is important to observe T's behavior prior to a molt. ...

It's very interesting that you should mention this.

Dr. Robert Gale Breene III ("Spider Bob" of American Tarantula Society fame) once mentioned that the male tarantulas in the Roswell/Artesia/Carlsbad, New Mexico corridor tended to wait until after a thunderstorm before they experienced their ultimate molt. We have no data on the behavior of the females, but it might be reasonable to assume that they do the same.

This is a survival strategy that helps to ensure that the tarantulas mature, mate, and produce eggsacs and baby tarantulas when moisture and food are relatively abundant. This is because such rainstorms may not occur for several years in the desert, and trying to breed during a dry spell would largely be a waste of resources in a harsh and unforgiving habitat.

It would therefore be reasonable to extrapolate such behavior to other tarantulas originating from similar habitats and situations.

And so, it would not require a huge leap of faith to assume that a brief damp period during premolt would tend to encourage or facilitate a molt among many tarantula species.

So, while a damp period during premolt may not have any direct effect on how well the molt progresses, it might very likely have a huge effect on its timing. In a cage this would be rather irrelevant, but in the wild it could be crucial for a species' survival.

One may argue that this is just an unsupported story, and that it requires too many such leaps of faith. But, it makes sense. In any case, it might make a good subject for a research project in animal behavior or reproductive biology, no?

PhD thesis, anyone?

I can't get rid of this ruddy mold!!!

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