Is He Stupid? (Don't handle giant centipedes)

dissenting opinions go here:

p.s. this is a brother thread to:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=492453#post492453

Two things come to mind.

1. I believe you are playing against the statistics, otherwise known as gambling.

2. You are dealing with living organisms, which adds another layer of uncertainty. Also, these organisms are not known for their endearing personalities.

It strikes me that what you are doing is analogous to collecting information on Russian Roulette, except that with Russian Roulette you only hear from the successful players. Here the risk is miserable pain for an extended period and a reasonable expectation of some temporary systemic effects.

Nevertheless, I shall be interested in how it all shakes out.

Cheers!
H

Himself said:

Two things come to mind.

1. I believe you are playing against the statistics, otherwise known as gambling.

2. You are dealing with living organisms, which adds another layer of uncertainty. Also, these organisms are not known for their endearing personalities.

It strikes me that what you are doing is analogous to collecting information on Russian Roulette, except that with Russian Roulette you only hear from the successful players. Here the risk is miserable pain for an extended period and a reasonable expectation of some temporary systemic effects.

Nevertheless, I shall be interested in how it all shakes out.

Cheers!
H

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thanks for replying in the "right" thread

i'm not going to rush right out and handle my subspinipes... i figured i would get acquainted with our American boys (i'm US-american... but then you probably guessed that already hehehehe) before trying to sort out the Asians

truth be told, centipedes don't seem that "aggressive" to me. i've seen tarantulas and scorpions strike at me / the cage maintenance activities than centipedes.

this should be interesting, either way

Darrin V. (Golden Phoenix Exotica) has wrote an article or two I believe for older ATS Fourm magazines reguarding the handleing of Scolopendra centipedes... He is pretty good at it... I've never purposefully handled them (although I've had them run up my hand a few times).... I believe the main concept is to let the Scolopendra crawl on you and DO NOT stop it or try to make it do anything... I know he, the ATS, nor I reccomend handleing 'pedes...

I've been bitten twice by S. heros and it freakin' hurts...I've heard alot of the exotics hurt way more... I am very impressed by it...check out these photos from online:

Darrin w/ S. polymorpha (he is very experienced):
http://www.goldenphoenixexotica.com/dopede.JPG

and the CLASSIC Shot of the S. vidricornis that we all dream about from Strictly Reptiles:

http://markmlucas.com/images/invertabrates/amazon giant 1.jpg

Holy god that is a huge S. vidricornis. I didnt know they got that big...

OK, I'm posting here because I don't have any firsthand experience, but this is what I've heard about handling pedes. Basically, the trick is to make the pede think that your hand is actually the ground (er, a piece of moving ground). So if you can get it to crawl ontop of your hand without forcing it or having it freaking out, you may be able to have it march from hand to hand. However, with the speed and temperment of some of the pedes out there, I think you'd have to be crazy to try.

NiGHTS said:

OK, I'm posting here because I don't have any firsthand experience, but this is what I've heard about handling pedes. Basically, the trick is to make the pede think that your hand is actually the ground (er, a piece of moving ground). So if you can get it to crawl ontop of your hand without forcing it or having it freaking out, you may be able to have it march from hand to hand. However, with the speed and temperment of some of the pedes out there, I think you'd have to be crazy to try.

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yeah, that's pretty much what i do... to take big ones out of the cage i scoop them with a hook and then place them on my hand.

the only time i've come close to being bit was when i was catching some. i was holding a ~4" S. polymorpha w/o problems... but i was having trouble getting my container open and the pede was getting more and more agitated so i decided to try to and squeeze it a little between my fingers to slow it down... the second i started applying pressure the pede froze and placed his fangs on my skin... i squeezed a little more and it squeezed a little more... i let go and it let go.

it was actually quite cool

Gsc said:

Darrin w/ S. polymorpha (he is very experienced):
http://www.goldenphoenixexotica.com/dopede.JPG

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actually...from the background i have gathered on this photo is that it was defanged at the time.

and the CLASSIC Shot of the S. vidricornis that we all dream about from Strictly Reptiles:

http://markmlucas.com/images/invertabrates/amazon giant 1.jpg

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i read, possibly on this forum, that this huuuge centipede was quite sluggish and apparently very overfed.

Himself said:

It strikes me that what you are doing is analogous to collecting information on Russian Roulette, except that with Russian Roulette you only hear from the successful players. Here the risk is miserable pain for an extended period and a reasonable expectation of some temporary systemic effects.

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I'd definitely agree with this. Whilst handling a pede isn't going to definitely result in a bite, there is always a chance of it happening, and if you carry on handling pedes i'd say that chance will almost reach 100% at some point.

Of course, i'm not one to say do or don't handle your pede, if you're an adult and are aware of the potential pain and danger, then go right ahead. On the other hand if we had a kid posting on these boards asking if its ok to handle his/her pede, i'd definitely say no.

cacoseraph said:

this should be interesting, either way

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There's the essential point. It's kind of funny that people have the urge to convince you not to handle centipedes. Who cares? They're yours, and when and if they bite they'll be biting you. Now if you were talking about a potentially deadly animal, then I can understand others caring, because your death would be far more noticeable to the public than a simple trip to the ER for painkillers, and the result would be more incentive for the already half-crazy state legislators to ban or further regulate exotics.

On a different topic, it's easy to think that the effects of a bite aren't really as bad as they sound, and that the bite reports are exaggerated. Even when you believe the reports, it's impossible to appreciate those effects without being bitten yourself. I learned this firsthand with Poecilotheria striata. When I was bitten, I took some painkillers and went to bed, confident that no matter how bad it got, it certainly wasn't going to compel a visit to the doctor. I was dramatically wrong.

I've heard a couple of bad first-hand S. subspinipes bite reports, and a bite like one of these might cause you to reformulate your opinions on centipede handling. Definitely interesting either way.

Steve

defour said:

Now if you were talking about a potentially deadly animal, then I can understand others caring, because your death would be far more noticeable to the public than a simple trip to the ER for painkillers, and the result would be more incentive for the already half-crazy state legislators to ban or further regulate exotics.

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Who's to say that we aren't dealing with a potentially deadly animal? I know we can be fairly sure that a bite isn't going to directly cause death (considering how common they are in tropical countries, and the lack of recorded deaths), but it only takes one person with a dodgy heart and a bite from a 12" subspinipes to change the way people percieve the hobby. I don't know how it is in the US, but in the UK the exotic pet hobby is coming under increasingly high levels of scrutiny, and there was even some talk of getting pedes added to the DWA list (for those of you who don't know about the DWA, look here ).

Like i said, i'm not going to condone or encourage the handling of pedes, if you're an adult and are aware of the situation, go ahead. I just hope anyone who does think of handling reads all the bite reports first.

danread said:

Who's to say that we aren't dealing with a potentially deadly animal?
Like i said, i'm not going to condone or encourage the handling of pedes, if you're an adult and are aware of the situation, go ahead. I just hope anyone who does think of handling reads all the bite reports first.

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My use of "potentially deadly" in this case wasn't in the strictly technical sense, since it's not very useful. By my working definition it covers venomous animals 1) that are known to have caused fatalities to healthy humans, 2) that aren't known to have caused fatalities but are very closely related to animals that have, or 3) for whom there is no information concerning envenomation effects. The vast majority of things I consider potentially deadly fall into the first category. Most of the ones that are left go in group 2, and a very small number into group 3. Since the only recorded centipede fatality occured to a child, and any number of contributing health factors may have been present, I don't consider it to be a good indicator of the "deadliness" of S. subspinipes. Considering its lack of shyness with respect to human populations, a lot of people likely recieve bites. One fatality in a sea of bites doesn't impress me much.

If we're to look at venomous animals with a stricter definition of "potentially deadly", we're going to have to get worried about Poecilotheria, Stromatopelma, Heteroscodra, Pterinochilus, etc., as well as just about any "new" species of tarantula or centipede that comes into the market. I think that's going too far. I don't condone or encourage pede handling or even tarantula handling, but it's not likely at all to result in damaging press. And when compared to the public consequences of bites from things like Gaboon vipers and Western diamondbacks, it's positively trivial. The invert community's biggest fear in the law department is being ensnared by sloppily written laws enacted by lazy elected officials in response to the keeping of dangerous snakes by morons.

Steve

danread said:

I'd definitely agree with this. Whilst handling a pede isn't going to definitely result in a bite, there is always a chance of it happening, and if you carry on handling pedes i'd say that chance will almost reach 100% at some point.

Of course, i'm not one to say do or don't handle your pede, if you're an adult and are aware of the potential pain and danger, then go right ahead. On the other hand if we had a kid posting on these boards asking if its ok to handle his/her pede, i'd definitely say no.

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i'm definitely an adult. i am not asking permission. i am asking other ppl to contribute what first hand knowledge they have to a personal interest of mine.

there is no DWA act, or anything similar that i am aware of in CA, USA.

i am well associated with many kinds of pain, and have rather nice health insurance, failing that. beyond that i am not stupid... i would like to think far from it.

i strictly handle S. polymorpha at this point, one of the safer centipedes to start this sort of a project with, any informed person would agree. i handled smaller specimen for the first year or so, then moved up to 4-5" sized individuals of both sexes. no notable (to me, at any rate...) difference in behaviour or spook-factor. finally i handled my huge 6+" female, with no problem... in fact, it turns out it tickles ;P

note: i don't know if S.polymorpha is incapable, or they are at ease enough not to engage the mechanism when i am handling them, but i have never seen any evidence of "centipede tracks".... the pattern of iritaton and puncture wounds that larger centipedes can supposedly leave in their wake. i don't doubt they can do it... some have repugnatorial secretory pores by the spiracles of some segments

All of this begs the question, why do it? Like i said, i'm not saying you should or shouldn't do it, it's entirely up to you as an adult what you do with your pedes, but i am curious to know whats your motivation for wanting to handle them?

defour said:

Now if you were talking about a potentially deadly animal, then I can understand others caring, because your death would be far more noticeable to the public than a simple trip to the ER for painkillers, and the result would be more incentive for the already half-crazy state legislators to ban or further regulate exotics.

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i've read a few accounts of people being bitten by Scolopendras and even morphine was no help. Did read a medical site about centipede envenomations that said heat was helpful for the pain though.

edesign said:

i've read a few accounts of people being bitten by Scolopendras and even morphine was no help. Did read a medical site about centipede envenomations that said heat was helpful for the pain though.

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yeah, S. subspinipes complex is DEFINITELY off my list of potential play mates =P

i intend to do a heat soak and topical antibiotic/antihistamine. maybe some oral antihistamine/allergy. and possibly get a prescription for antibiotics if i get large holes put in me.

if the pain is that furious i can take some (OTC)sleeping pills and a drinkypoo and sleep it off. but like i've said... i really don't intend on handling subspinipes group now, if at all.

i'd like to maybe make a point about misperceptions, not prove i'm a prakking idiot

cacoseraph said:

if the pain is that furious i can take some (OTC)sleeping pills and a drinkypoo and sleep it off. but like i've said... i really don't intend on handling subspinipes group now, if at all.

i'd like to maybe make a point about misperceptions, not prove i'm a prakking idiot

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I'd say with subspinipes off the list your project is looking a lot cheerier.

The sleep aid and booze strategy goes with what I mentioned about not appreciating pain until it shows up. I did exactly the same thing with my bite; it didn't help, and wouldn't have unless I'd dosed myself to the point of being in danger of dying from the cure. This was pain that had no respect for alcohol and pills. There was simply no way I was sleeping until it was all over. Granted, this wasn't a centipede bite, and the really horrible pede bites I've talked to people about involved S. subspinipes. From the sounds of it, trying to sleep through one of those would have been similarly futile.

Steve

danread said:

All of this begs the question, why do it? Like i said, i'm not saying you should or shouldn't do it, it's entirely up to you as an adult what you do with your pedes, but i am curious to know whats your motivation for wanting to handle them?

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EDIT:
holy balloons that is a long post! i swear it's not a rant... at least... i don't think it is... you tell me =P
/EDIT:
i think i touched on this in the positive thread seed, but i wouldn't mind elaborating a little bit here.

expanded history:

i have hand caught around 25 S. polymorpha ranging from the cutest little blue-ish 1"(2.5cm) cuties to 5-5.5"(13-14cm) monsters i temporarily named Satan. incidentily, i measure only body length, no antena, no terminal legs.

hand catching, by the way, literally involves finding them in the wild, grabbing them with my hand, and putting them in a jar. actually i don't grab *them* i do what i call an Iron Finger Grab... i lock my fingers in place around them (and possibly some substrate... sort it out later!) and lift them up with out EVER apply direct pressure on their top or sides.

that's the only part i feel is ticklish. once i get them up and in the air on my hand they just run around like little maniacs.

i've had a 3+" run up my sweatshirt sleave. that was pretty funny... i power stripped on the side of a busy road to recapture my wayward friend =P

in addition to hand catching them i would play with them while rehousing them into their permanent homes. i played with just about every centipede i ever caught, including the larger ones. With anything above ~4" (10cm) i strictly use Iron Fingers to make sure i don't apply the wrong pressure to them.

some interesting points to consider. twice i inadvertently ripped a terminal leg off of a centipede whilst catching it. both times i had the centipede in my hand and accidentily pulled a leg wrapped around a piece of stick or root on the ground that i hadn't noticed. think about that... i ripped a pretty important piece of a supposedly aggressive animal off while in the midst of forcibly removing it from it's lifelong habitat... and they never bit me.

Before i even bought my first centipede and long (er, relatively) before i set out to catch them i started reading about them. something you have to know about me is that i am a compulsive reader. if you ever see/read Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events... i'm like a real (and toned down) version of that kid =P i read the article by Darrin Vernier (and still don't know how to pronounce his last name... ). i read booksin libraries, some so old it was almost comical the terms they used. i read articles online. gods did i read articles. i read the bite reports and think i know what went wrong for those people.

Finally after having well over 100 (140-150 more likely... i *do* play with them) positive handling experiences with S. polymorpha i decided to move onto to handling the 6+" (BL only!) big fat S. polymorpha, "Mortal Sin", i bought as an "AZ Blue-Banded centipede". i handled her for about five minutes, but must admit to being overcome by adrenalin... i was shaking so bad i had to put her back, for both our safeties, heh. i was not afraid... i was very excited that it seemed like i was somewhat correct in my thinking.

i certainly do not think all centipedes can or should be handled. but i find handling them an extremely postive experience and hope maybe i can share that with other people.

plus, anyone who knows me in real life knows at least one thing about me: i am a consumate coward! i look up to paranoid people as beacons of courage... so i do not think i am lightly entering into an "experiment" that could result in my harm =P

oh, as a next step i have ordered 2 S. heros castaniceps (to hopefully find a girl (or two!) for my boy and three S. morsitans. I am VERY excited about the morsitans as they are almost the focus of the Scolopendra portions of _The Biology of Centipedes_ by Lewis, which i have acquired

as a closing note: I believe i can now, rather easily sex S. polymorpha at 3+"... and most of the other common pet species i have seen and bought in real life, at mature sizes.
Of my four (i know 4 is nothing from a stats point) adult giant centipedes:
S. polymorpha 6" female,
S. heros castaniceps 6+" male,
S. sp. "Vietnam" probably subspinipes ~7" male,
S. sp. "Haiti" which i read might actually not be a Scolopendra genus after all... 6+" male

i confirmed the three male predictions by later seeing them pop their hemipenises, don't really know short of laying eggs or disecting post mortem how to confirm girls.

I believe my understanding of sexing came in part from all the handling interaction. Should be interesting to further test if i'm right with the new centipedes i ordered.

Gsc said:

D

I've been bitten twice by S. heros and it freakin' hurts...I've heard alot of the exotics hurt way more... I am very impressed by it...check out these photos from online:
[/url]

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My brother was tagged by one(Scolopendra heros) while he was "trying" to sleep it was in his bed and he felt something on his leg so he went to brush it off. Well it tagged him and he called me right away(I'm in pest control) and almost offered me his harley to get rid of everything in his house that has more than two legs. I told him to clean his damn room cause it looks like a storage shed. Anyway it left a 6" round bruise on his leg. The pede was about 4" long.

arizona said:

My brother was tagged by one(Scolopendra heros) while he was "trying" to sleep it was in his bed and he felt something on his leg so he went to brush it off. Well it tagged him and he called me right away(I'm in pest control) and almost offered me his harley to get rid of everything in his house that has more than two legs. I told him to clean his damn room cause it looks like a storage shed. Anyway it left a 6" round bruise on his leg. The pede was about 4" long.

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heh, the more i'm reading and watching the more i think S. heros belongs in the "Do Not Handle" bin =P

i have had a S. heros c. for ~3 months, and just recently got two more. All three seem more nervous than i am comfortable with handling. In this type of venture i am definitely going to listen to my inner whisperings =P