Should Non-adults be allowed to own/care for OW species

This issue came up recently and I think it has been debated at length in another unrelated thread. For members who wanted to say something but did not feel hijacking another thread is appropriate, this thread is for you. I'm hoping the mods will move some of the comments from the other thread here so members can read what's been said already and continue the discussion. This thread was not started to persuade those who have OW species already to give up theirs but a place for everyone to voice their opinions.

Choose the maybe option if you think they can if they have parental consent or if a certain age is ok but not legally an adult.

im 17 and that makes me a non adult does that mean i cant have an old world t?

i cant say who can and cant have an old world t
and i think it can be pretty bad for a little kid to get a face full of u-hairs from a new world too IMO

ive been on this board for a couple months now and i see that clam here is only 17 and that blew my mind, hes got alot of knowledge under his belt already and i say let it be, i vote yes. becuz i know alot of "minors" that are WAY more intelligent than adults, and ive seen people who just have a natural knack for being good with animals. so its just like anything else, if u can handle it then cool if not, then i guess we'll be reading some pretty funny bite reports.

clam1991 said:

im 17 and that makes me a non adult does that mean i cant have an old world t?

i cant say who can and cant have an old world t
and i think it can be pretty bad for a little kid to get a face full of u-hairs from a new world too IMO

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yeah, I totally agree, Im 26 and still not an adult. I think it really depends on the person. If your capable then why the heck not? like clam said "only 17" and knows enough to handle OW/NW, when it really comes down to the basics of T keeping, there are only small differences,....,,,unless its a fetherleg.

rustym3talh3ad said:

ive been on this board for a couple months now and i see that clam here is only 17 and that blew my mind, hes got alot of knowledge under his belt already and i say let it be, i vote yes. becuz i know alot of "minors" that are WAY more intelligent than adults, and ive seen people who just have a natural knack for being good with animals. so its just like anything else, if u can handle it then cool if not, then i guess we'll be reading some pretty funny bite reports.

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oh metal head i blushed

and thanks for the compliment i have 2 macaws multiple dogs and ball pythons tarantulas cats and i work weekends and i watch my baby brother when my mom works
and i have to say the 20 or so obts i have a piece of cake compared to the sun conure i have that thinks my fingers are treats

and i think that if a kid knows what hes doing there shouldnt be a problem

there are a lot of younger people on here that have multiple ts and take great care of them with no issue at all

and for the argument that kids can be harmed by venom because they are smaller than adults..hehe
im 17 and im 6' 4" and weigh well over 200 pounds (like 280?)

Medically significant species should not be sold to underaged persons, who have, due to their age, a medical susceptibility toward many venoms; and who, due to their age, are not legally competent if an accident should occur.

Because: minors are more vulnerable to an envenomation, and so will incur both greater harm to themselves, and greater legal damages to the hobby if bitten/ stung, than if they were adult.


Many OW species are NOT medically significant. Pterinochilus, Eucratoscelus, Hysterocrates, Citharischius, Ceratogyrus, for instance. Venomous spiders should be kept by those who are physically less at risk, and legally less of a time-bomb for our hobby.

clam1991 said:

and for the argument that kids can be harmed by venom because they are smaller than adults..hehe
im 17 and im 6' 4" and weigh well over 200 pounds (like 280?)

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DANG! haha, 6 years younger than me and twice my size, ive noticed they started growing them big since i was born, i got the "Normal" euro-trash mut gene im 5'10" and 215lbs. pretty standard size for a white boy of my age

Venom said:

Medically significant species should not be sold to underaged persons, who have, due to their age, a medical susceptibility toward many venoms; and who, due to their age, are not legally competent if an accident should occur.

Because: minors are more vulnerable to an envenomation, and so will incur both greater harm to themselves, and greater legal damages to the hobby if bitten/ stung, than if they were adult.


Many OW species are NOT medically significant. Pterinochilus, Eucratoscelus, Hysterocrates, Citharischius, Ceratogyrus, for instance. Venomous spiders should be kept by those who are physically less at risk, and legally less of a time-bomb for our hobby.

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so i could get a worse bite reaction than say crpy?
since hes like 40 sumthin?

i doubt it

oh and metal headd i live next to not one but two power plants so hehe
may be the reason for my ginormascity (yes i made that up)

Maybe

That just depends on how their guardians feel about it. Pretty easy to figure that one IMO.

clam1991 said:

so i could get a worse bite reaction than say crpy?
since hes like 40 sumthin?

i doubt it

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It's a case of two factors: physical and legal. In the vast MAJORITY of cases, minors are physically at risk. But in the ENTIRETY of cases, a minor is a legal risk.

You would pose a legal risk, not so much a physical risk.

risks? if a kid gets one, and gets tagged he should know from the get go what hes gotten himself into. and take for instance i drink alot more than what society deems appropriate, and smoke like a chimney so in theory I MYSELF at 23 could be at more health risk than say even a 14 year old due to my self inflicted weak immune system. i feel if a minor wants to get an old world so be it, so long as they know what they are getting into. and if a pet store doesnt have a waver on their arachnids and inverts then thats their fault and the only legal action would be taken on the store itself.

edit: also ive seen some pretty nasty cricket bites, so are we gonna go as far as saying minors cant keep crickets either?

It all depends on the individual. I know some people over the age of 30 that should not have anything venomous in their possession. On the other hand, many younger people show respect for the animals, and keep them correctly.

John

rustym3talh3ad said:

risks my ass, if a kid gets one, and gets tagged he should know from the get go what hes gotten himself into. and take for instance i drink alot more than what society deems appropriate, and smoke like a chimney so in theory I MYSELF at 23 could be at more health risk than say even a 14 year old due to my self inflicted weak immune system. i feel if a minor wants to get an old world so be it, so long as they know what they are getting into. and if a pet store doesnt have a waver on their arachnids and inverts then thats their fault and the only legal action would be taken on the store itself.

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You are missing the point. Legal consequences could easily extend to the hobby in general, not just the vendor of an individual specimen. A bite/ sting to a minor could easily be much more serious than we typically see in our adult keepers, ergo, much scarier in the press. This could result in a campaign to ban our animals...FOR EVERYONE, not just kids. Hence I say, children / minors should not be allowed to purchase animals that put them at an elevated risk, both for their own sake, and for all other hobbyists sake. It is not an exaggeration to speculate that what put RobC ( and numerous others ) in an ER, could put a 13 yo in a coma. Do you want to see that on the nightly news? Do you want your local authorities, or state legislature to start writing bills about tarantula keeping? I certainly do NOT.

Venom said:

It's a case of two factors: physical and legal. In the vast MAJORITY of cases, minors are physically at risk. But in the ENTIRETY of cases, a minor is a legal risk.

You would pose a legal risk, not so much a physical risk.

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true

but how come some scorpions and true spiders are sold as hot or only 18 or older but all ts can be purchased by anyone:?

and i understand that a little kid getting bit could pose a risk especially if they are a giant like me
but people who are ignorant about this sort of thing usually dont buy tarantulas

maybe dealers should have a disclaimer or something to let people know about ow species when people try to buy them:?
and swift i know warns people of defensiveness and potency in the description

Absolutely yes.
Age != maturity.
Granted, sometimes it does, but there are several underage persons on this forum that keep OW species, and hot species (myself included), and sometimes they are much more responsible and mature with them than several adults. I have also noticed that the majority of incidents (bites, stings etc) have occurred in adults, not in younger persons. Limitations of what can/cannot be purchased by an individual should be regulated by the experiance level of the person, and if any past incidents have occurred.
Granted it would be alot more work for sellers, but it could possibley make the hobby much better for us, and for future generations.

rustym3talh3ad said:

risks my arse

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speaking or risks your risking an infraction

Venom said:

You are missing the point. Legal consequences could easily extend to the hobby in general, not just the vendor of an individual specimen. A bite/ sting to a minor could easily be much more serious than we typically see in our adult keepers, ergo, much scarier in the press. This could result in a campaign to ban our animals...FOR EVERYONE, not just kids. Hence I say, children / minors should not be allowed to purchase animals that put them at an elevated risk, both for their own sake, and for all other hobbyists sake. It is not an exaggeration to speculate that what put RobC ( and numerous others ) in an ER, could put a 13 yo in a coma. Do you want to see that on the nightly news? Do you want your local authorities, or state legislature to start writing bills about tarantula keeping? I certainly do NOT.

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agreed, but i feel that this is a overblown idea, where in any post forum or news paper archive have we seen anyone becoming comatose SERIOUSLY injured or killed by a T? the Malaysian Pede that is supposedly the one that can take a humans life has only been reported of claiming a VERY small childs life with no means of medical attention in a 3rd world country, so honestly its like saying "what IF a kid gets tagged by an OW and what IF he is hospitalized and what IF there are serious complications due to the bite and What IF the media gets ahold of it and what IF local or national authorities bring light to the fact that Tarantula Keeping is dangerous and should be banned." its way to far stretched to say that no minor should ever handle or care for an OW, when roaming thru the backyard exploring their curious new love for bugs could wind up with them loosing a limb.

I'm "a non-adult" and I keep scorpions, tarantulas, and other venomous critters. I would NEVER handle anything that could do alot of damage, and I take care of all my animals properly. I say yes, if you know all the care requirments and not to poke it in the face with your finger, you should be able to keep what you wish, as long as you excersize extreme care when maintaining anthing highly venomous.

clam1991 said:

speaking or risks your risking an infraction

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yeah i just got one yesterday HAHAH better edit that.

clam1991 said:

true

but how come some scorpions and true spiders are sold as hot or only 18 or older but all ts can be purchased by anyone:?

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Simply stated, scorpions kill, and tarantulas don't. Even level 3 scorpions have killed, whereas, --so far-- no tarantula has a reputable / authenticated death report. But yes, it is a double standard. It is only logical that, as you say, the 18+ requirement be extended to the med' sig' species of tarantula.

but people who are ignorant about this sort of thing usually dont buy tarantulas

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That is a real windfall for us! The fact that the hobby mainly occurs online, reduces the opportunity for the average joe to purchase an exotic T. You have to LOOK for these animals to find them for sale, hence, no impulse purchases. Mostly, those who buy specialty T's do so after a fair bit of research, which keeps everyone safer.

maybe dealers should have a disclaimer or something to let people know about ow species when people try to buy them:?
and swift i know warns people of defensiveness and potency in the description

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Yes, many keepers are doing this now. Todd at tarantulaspiders, Chris at krazy8sinvertebrates, Swift at swiftinverts....they are all including info on whether a species is significantly toxic, and doing something to prohibit minors from purchasing these. However, like you said, that practice should be extended to genera like Poecilotheria, Stromatopelma, Heteroscodra, Selenocosmia. Not many tarantulas are venomous enough for this to be necessary, but I feel it is a good idea for at least these few genera, that have very real and serious bite reports.

rustym3talh3ad said:

agreed, but i feel that this is a overblown idea, where in any post forum or news paper archive have we seen anyone becoming comatose SERIOUSLY injured or killed by a T?

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To which I respond by asking: how many minors have you read bite reports from? We basically only have bite / sting reports from adults. What would happen in a kid, is speculative, but I think a general conclusion can be drawn: it will be worse. And we know already it can be bad enough.

the Malaysian Pede that is supposedly the one that can take a humans life has only been reported of claiming a VERY small childs life with no means of medical attention in a 3rd world country

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The child died IN a hospital, ergo, she did have medical attention. Otherwise, there would BE no medical account of her death.

so honestly its like saying "what IF a kid gets tagged by an OW

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NO, only a specific few OW.

and what IF he is hospitalized and what IF there are serious complications due to the bite

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Logic, please? If your kid were bitten by a venomous animal, would you wait it out, or take them in? I think most parents will automatically take the child to the hospital, in which case, they must inform the doctors of what has happened: child bitten by venomous spider--otherwise, improper treatment results. If the child is bitten and receives venom ( not a dry bite ), there WILL be symptoms. How bad is unknown, and depends on the amount of venom, and the child bitten. But, whatever does happen to the child, it will be correspondingly worse in the child than if the same amount of venom were given to an adult, and we know how bad it can be for adults.

and What IF the media gets ahold of it

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How familiar are you with pediatrics? If a hospital suspects child abuse, or child endangerment, they are LEGALLY REQUIRED to call Child Services. So, scenario: Paren says "My child was bitten by a toxic tarantula." Can you see the next question? Doctor asks: "How did that happen?" Parent can either lie (how many believable scenarios can you think of, for exposing a child to an exotic, venomous tarantula in this country? ), or tell the truth "It was a pet." In that case, the doctor must either decide that a venomous tarantula is a normal pet for a child to keep, ( lol ) or that it is a bit weird that parents allow their child to keep venomous animals ( more likely ). Ergo, their legal obligation to report child endangerment kicks in. Do you see how this could work now? The media are LOOKING for this kind of story, all the time. Read your newspaper.

and what IF local or national authorities bring light to the fact that Tarantula Keeping is dangerous and should be banned."

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People read the newspaper. Politicians are always looking for a platform issue that will excite people to vote for them. Protecting the public from "crazies" like us, is not far fetched for a politician to try.

its way to far stretched to say that no minor should ever handle or care for an OW

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,

Not all OW, just a few.