What is DKS

Dyn · Dec 14, 2009

I cant seem to get a search to come up with anything. I dont know what its an abriviation of or anything.

Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.
The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search : dks

Exo · Dec 14, 2009

Diskinetic syndrome, or DKS for short. It's symptoms are similar to those caused by pesticide poisoning, which means that whatever it is, it probably affects the nervous system.

Talkenlate04 · Dec 14, 2009

Pretty much a bunch of unexplainable heath related things that happen to a Tarantula that get lumped into the "DSK" syndrome.
It seems that more and more these days someone sees their T acting funny and DSK is blamed as the cause when it really is just a bunch of symptoms not a cause or illness.

Exo · Dec 14, 2009

Talkenlate04 said:
Pretty much a bunch of unexplainable heath related things that happen to a Tarantula that get lumped into the "DSK" syndrome.
It seems that more and more these days someone sees their T acting funny and DSK is blamed as the cause when it really is just a bunch of symptoms not a cause.

I've noticed this too, I think that there are many causes, ranging from pesticide poisoning to bacterial infection and even stuff like dehydration.

Dyn · Dec 14, 2009

thanks for the responses guys

Stan Schultz · Dec 15, 2009

I have been communicating with a lady who managed to breed Chilean rose tarantulas (Grammostola rosea). Of the 250 or so babies originally produced she managed to follow the growth, development, and fates of about a dozen of the babies. Most of the babies were distributed to other enthusiasts while still very young. Therefore, whatever influences that may have effected them were probably quite variable and differed from household to household, tending to cancel out or nullify the majority of environmental influences.

So far, about 6 (approximately half) of the babies, now several years old and about "juvenile" size, have died with dyskinetic syndrome-like symptoms, although the mother is apparently still in good health. This immediately suggests the possibility that some expressions of the malady may be an inherited character because it seems to "cluster" in this one family in spite of the differences in their care.

Given this possibility it would be extremely interesting from a scientific point of view, if not from an aesthetic or materialistic, profit and loss standpoint, if other enthusiasts who have bred family lines of tarantulas in which DKS has been noted have also noted a tendency towards the condition cropping up in greater frequency within those family groups.

Is at least some sort of DSK inheritable? If so, is it dominant, recessive, sex linked, etc? Should we examine what scant breeding records we can unearth for the possibility? Should some of us purposely try to breed tarantulas with the condition in their family history to determine if it really is inheritable?

Here is an opportunity for some advanced enthusiasts to do some really interesting and important research.

Talkenlate04 · Dec 15, 2009

Awesome post.
I myself have had this happen too with a regalis egg sac. About 20% of the babies all exhibited problems some even biting their own legs off. All of those that showed symptoms eventually died.There was no chance of chemical exposure of any kind.

Interestingly enough the rest of the babies were just fine. They grew up well and I still have some of them here. Because I had that weird issue and could not stick it to anything but the possibility of bad genetics I kept the babies and did not sell them.

keithb · Dec 15, 2009

Has anyone considered the possibility that this is just 'normal' - some of the slings are weaker than others, and in the wild they'd get picked off early on. With so many eggs in a sac, it might be adaptive to have a large amount of variation - some don't make it, but some are new, improved versions.

Just a thought - I am not a biologist, but I play one on TV

Moltar · Dec 15, 2009

Talkenlate04 said:
Awesome post.
I myself have had this happen too with a regalis egg sac. About 20% of the babies all exhibited problems some even biting their own legs off. All of those that showed symptoms eventually died.There was no chance of chemical exposure of any kind.

Ryan, I remember when you had this die-off. I thought you'd determined that you had probably cross-contaminated some of your T's via contact with a Frontline treated animal then feeding your slings. Am I mis-remembering or are you talking about a different incident?

Keith, these symptoms and subsequent deaths have been observed in adults too so it couldn't be only a genetically passed on trait although it certainly could be an explanation for some of the occurrences. Maybe there's a gene that causes some slings to be weaker and actually promotes cannibalism in order to allow some to survive. Nature has done weirder things than that...

I think that what it comes down to is that a loss of motor skills resulting in an uncontrollable, spastic, "drunken" type of movement is a common symptom for many ailments that would affect a spider. Just like with humans, how many different things can cause symptoms like a fever, vomiting or a headache? An observer who knew very little about our physiology may think every time somebody vomits it's the same malady. "Regurgitative syndrome" or some such thing.

keithb · Dec 15, 2009

Moltar said:
Keith, these symptoms and subsequent deaths have been observed in adults too so it couldn't be only a genetically passed on trait although it certainly could be an explanation for some of the occurrences. Maybe there's a gene that causes some slings to be weaker and actually promotes cannibalism in order to allow some to survive. Nature has done weirder things than that...

Yeah, this is very much along the lines of what I was thinking. Nature expects 1 in 10 to survive, and we get upset if 1 in 10 doesn't make it

Jmugleston · Dec 15, 2009

Pikaia said:
I have been communicating with a lady who managed to breed Chilean rose tarantulas (Grammostola rosea). Of the 250 or so babies originally produced she managed to follow the growth, development, and fates of about a dozen of the babies. Most of the babies were distributed to other enthusiasts while still very young. Therefore, whatever influences that may have effected them were probably quite variable and differed from household to household, tending to cancel out or nullify the majority of environmental influences.

So far, about 6 (approximately half) of the babies, now several years old and about "juvenile" size, have died with dyskinetic syndrome-like symptoms, although the mother is apparently still in good health. This immediately suggests the possibility that some expressions of the malady may be an inherited character because it seems to "cluster" in this one family in spite of the differences in their care.

Given this possibility it would be extremely interesting from a scientific point of view, if not from an aesthetic or materialistic, profit and loss standpoint, if other enthusiasts who have bred family lines of tarantulas in which DKS has been noted have also noted a tendency towards the condition cropping up in greater frequency within those family groups.

Is at least some sort of DSK inheritable? If so, is it dominant, recessive, sex linked, etc? Should we examine what scant breeding records we can unearth for the possibility? Should some of us purposely try to breed tarantulas with the condition in their family history to determine if it really is inheritable?

Here is an opportunity for some advanced enthusiasts to do some really interesting and important research.

The problem with trying to determine if there is a genetic component to "DKS" is we don't even have a succinct definition for the term. It seems that whenever a spider is showing any signs of neurological duress we label it DKS and that is that. Until an actual diagnosis of DKS exists, it will remain a catch-all for any unexplained spider behavior that ends in death. Whether it is chemical either from pesticides, toxins in the water supply, toxins from their food source, or even just a lack of control due to advance stages of dehydration.

Also, to test (really test, not anecdotal) you would need numerous controls to be sure there aren't other factors. If the dozen or so were kept at different temps, humidities, fed different diets, or exposed to other various environmental conditions, any or all of these cold affect the outcome.

It may be an interesting question, but until a definition of the problem exists, there isn't much hope for a test to tease out the causes.

I'm in a hurry so I may have a number of typos above. I'll edit later if needed.

esotericman · Dec 15, 2009

Jmugleston said:
The problem with trying to determine if there is a genetic component to "DKS" is we don't even have a succinct definition for the term. It seems that whenever a spider is showing any signs of neurological duress we label it DKS and that is that. Until an actual diagnosis of DKS exists, it will remain a catch-all for any unexplained spider behavior that ends in death. Whether it is chemical either from pesticides, toxins in the water supply, toxins from their food source, or even just a lack of control due to advance stages of dehydration.

And here I thought I was the only one thinking this. Thank you for taking time time to type it all out!

Talkenlate04 · Dec 15, 2009

Moltar said:
Ryan, I remember when you had this die-off. I thought you'd determined that you had probably cross-contaminated some of your T's via contact with a Frontline treated animal then feeding your slings. Am I mis-remembering or are you talking about a different incident?

Yes different incident. The one you are thinking of I lost a few 100 ts (mostly slings of this and that) in 3-4 weeks and never truly nailed down the cause. There was a lot of guessing and speculation but nothing solid. I still use Frontline on my cat and have not had a problem since.

esotericman said:
And here I thought I was the only one thinking this. Thank you for taking time time to type it all out!

Hes not the only one thinking that, I spoke of it back on post three.

Jmugleston · Dec 15, 2009

Ryan is correct. This misuse of terms has been mentioned by many.

DKS has been and continues to be a classification of symptoms...not a diagnosis of any particular malady.

To be honest, I think the use of the term hinders the exchange of information. Since it is the "catch-all" description for any issue, it becomes a stopping point. Instead of asking what caused my spider to exhibit symptoms A, B, and C?, the discussion is "my spider died of DKS." Then the conversation goes a stereotypical direction of warning to watch your other spiders (not a bad idea) and then the obligatory condolences (not necessarily a bad thing).

It is similar to IBD in snakes. Though there may have been an actual disease (IBD), but everyone with any problems with their boas/pythons (and a kingsnake in one case) blamed this "AIDS of the herp world" and never looked closer at these situations. This went for vets and collectors alike. It wasn't until a few started looking closer that the disorder attributed to a tick-borne disease was separated from the symptoms that were connected to problems with trauma, dehydration, improper husbandry, etc.

I think a better reaction than blaming every twitching spider to DKS would be to discuss husbandry protocols, shipping methods, age of the spider, and if possible (until a genetic component can be fully ruled out) the geneology of the spider if known. Though this will still be speculative until a hypothesis can be developed and tested with proper controls.

I'd say that was my two cents, but you'll spend more than 2 cents worth of time reading it. Sorry.

Talkenlate04 · Dec 15, 2009

Very well put J.

keithb said:
Has anyone considered the possibility that this is just 'normal' - some of the slings are weaker than others, and in the wild they'd get picked off early on. With so many eggs in a sac, it might be adaptive to have a large amount of variation - some don't make it, but some are new, improved versions.

Just a thought - I am not a biologist, but I play one on TV

It is not just limited to slings. Full grown adults have had this batch of symptoms too.

Stan Schultz · Dec 15, 2009

keithb said:
Has anyone considered the possibility that this is just 'normal' - some of the slings are weaker than others, ...

In most medical examiner's offices, in most autopsy rooms, in most medical schools there is no such thing as "death due to old age." In every case, something specific went very wrong; wrong enough to stop the individual's heart.

In the same sense, there is no such thing as a "weak tarantula." There is some very good reason why that tarantula is weak. Some sort of heart disease? A muscle function problem? Some sort of neuropathy? Something else? So, to be correct we should state "weak because of [condition]" or simply "suffering from [condition]." In captive breeding we would very much like to know exactly what that weakness is so we can assess whether we want to continue breeding that family line.

In a very general sense, in nature it's called natural selection. In captivity it's called selective breeding.

keithb said:
... With so many eggs in a sac, it might be adaptive to have a large amount of variation - some don't make it, but some are new, improved versions. ...

Exactly correct. And in a captive breeding situation we would need to find ways of sorting the "good" or "desirable" for future breeding efforts from those that are "bad" or "undesirable."

What is DKS

Dyn

Arachnobaron

Exo

Arachnoprince

Talkenlate04

ArachnoGod

Exo

Arachnoprince

Dyn

Arachnobaron

Stan Schultz

Arachnoprince

Talkenlate04

ArachnoGod

keithb

Arachnopeon

Moltar

ArachnoGod

keithb

Arachnopeon

Jmugleston

Arachnoprince

esotericman

Arachnoknight

Talkenlate04

ArachnoGod

Jmugleston

Arachnoprince

Talkenlate04

ArachnoGod

Stan Schultz

Arachnoprince