Inverts & Pain - The Ultimate Thread

Should T's have rights?

I found this article about invertebrate rights. Inside it claims that a lobster isn't likley to feel pain, and that it's reaction to being boiled is just a fight or flight reaction that the lobster has to keep itself alive. The article doesn't do much in the way of proving this, only saying that there is a 39 page article on why they do not. I'd love to give that a read, but unfortunatly they don't link to it.

What do you think? Should Inverts have rights protecting them from "cruelty?" Anythoughts on inverts in general and thier capcity to feel pain?

ShaunHolder said:

I found this article about invertebrate rights. Inside it claims that a lobster isn't likley to feel pain, and that it's reaction to being boiled is just a fight or flight reaction that the lobster has to keep itself alive. The article doesn't do much in the way of proving this, only saying that there is a 39 page article on why they do not. I'd love to give that a read, but unfortunatly they don't link to it.

What do you think? Should Inverts have rights protecting them from "cruelty?" Anythoughts on inverts in general and thier capcity to feel pain?

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Acually i think they do. I was once told by a few pet store owners that if a animal cruelty officer saw me pulling the legs off one of my Ts or having like a "death match" with some of them that i could get a fine, and maybe some jail time....tho i dunno if this is true or not.


-Mattyb

http://scienceweek.com/2004/sb040416-4.htm

Excerpt from article:
"Of course, invertebrate organisms do not experience pain per se, but they do have transduction mechanisms that enable them to detect and avoid potentially harmful stimuli in their environment."

So I guess they should have some rights, but how can you be cruel to an organism that doesn't feel pain?

I always thought that t's and such perhaps don't feel pain as we'd know it but as mentioned above they can detect harmful conditions and will react to them. Surely this suggests that even if they didn't feel pain they would still be physiologically "stressed" if one were to be cruel to them in some way that would provoke pain in a higher organism like a mammal, I'd see that as being wrong. I always kind of thought that us hoomins have a responsibility to keep whatever animals we own in the best way possible within financial and space restrictions. Deliberate hurting of a t or any other creature kind of goes against that.

Of course wild T's are a whole new can of worms, please don't get me started on our responsibilty of wild t's and their habitats as I could go on for ages. :wall:

Mattyb said:

Acually i think they do. I was once told by a few pet store owners that if a animal cruelty officer saw me pulling the legs off one of my Ts or having like a "death match" with some of them that i could get a fine, and maybe some jail time....tho i dunno if this is true or not.


-Mattyb

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I believe the pet shop fed you a load of bull. They were probably saying that to scare you. If it were true, the stuff you see on "Fear Factor" would never be allowed.

I care for my pets and give them the best possible care that I can. However, in general, I do not believe that they have the capacity to feel pain. The world can be a cruel place though and I don't have a problem with the eating of animals. If PETA had its way, the entire world population would be vegetarian. That is until some scientist claimed plants feel pain. In that case, if things were decided by PETA, we would all be screwed.

Do I suggest that we go out and torture animals for our entertainment such as Fear Factor, no way. Am I comfortable with the death of an animal for food, you bet.

I agree with you Windchaser. :clap:

how can you be cruel to an organism that doesn't feel pain?

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Its not so much about the pain, but theres nothing to say you cannot scare a spider, thats v cruel in my book.

"Of course, invertebrate organisms do not experience pain per se, but they do have transduction mechanisms that enable them to detect and avoid potentially harmful stimuli in their environment."

Erm, thats effectively what pain is.

Pain is not the reaction, pain is the MESSAGE. This is why you can have pain in the absence of damaging stimuli, it is as simple as a cell which fires to send a message. We cant even BREED tarantulas particularly successfully (an approximately 15% success rate is not what I'd consider successful) and it is recognised that there are some important physiological mechinisms making tarantulas go which we simply do not understand. You can't tell me anyone knows enough about tarantulas to make this kind of destinction with 100% surity.

Assuming because it's a "lower" creature it doesn't feel pain is backwards thinking, (and sounds a bit too much like the kind of reasoning people use to wipe out entire other peoples). Our capacity for reaction to pain comes from the most primitive part of our brains. Development of a stimulous response system is one of the most basic and most adaptive developments in all of creation. Tarantula's are "high" enough to have a startle mechanism, what makes it so hart to believe that they may have pain mechanisms as well? It's just a different set of sensory cells, which we know they have an abundance of.

On a personal level I prefer to act under the assumption that any creature has the capacity to feel pain. If, all truth be told, they do not have this capacity I lose nothing in being kind to my fellow creatures, and if they do feel pain, I have saved other creatures from harm at my hands (and hopefully at others). Note however, I am not a vegetarian or vegan.

People just don't give these creatures enough credit

My blunt opinion is they feel pain! You also hear people say dogs don't have feelings either ( which is BS). Now I am not comparing a tarantula to a dog in terms of intelligence but people don't give them enough credit. Who started this thread anyway??

Is not pain a subjective word? Two people would agree that hitting your thumb with a hammer hurts. But would they both feel the same thing? We cannot know. One stimulus that makes one individual cry is enjoyed by another person. We are defining pain as the 'bell' used my an organism to get its attention and protect itself.

Whatever. If an organism reacts strongly, it doesn't like the stimulus!

Sterlingspider said:

Erm, thats effectively what pain is.

Pain is not the reaction, pain is the MESSAGE. This is why you can have pain in the absence of damaging stimuli, it is as simple as a cell which fires to send a message. We cant even BREED tarantulas particularly successfully (an approximately 15% success rate is not what I'd consider successful) and it is recognised that there are some important physiological mechinisms making tarantulas go which we simply do not understand. You can't tell me anyone knows enough about tarantulas to make this kind of destinction with 100% surity.

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What is assumed in that paragraph...That breedings in nature are successful in far more than 15% of pairings....I'd love to see that study.....And the brachypelma population study while were at it.....
T

Sterlingspider said:

We cant even BREED tarantulas particularly successfully (an approximately 15% success rate is not what I'd consider successful)

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Pairing in captivity leads to at best a 15% success rate :?, Maybe with some of the hardest species to breed but that figure would be a lot higher for many, Id be very interested to know who said this and what amount of breeding experience or data from others it was based on :?.

personally, I think everything living has a right. Fact of the matter is, humans know sooo little about soooo much...


dOOb

monantony said:

What is assumed in that paragraph...That breedings in nature are successful in far more than 15% of pairings....I'd love to see that study.....And the brachypelma population study while were at it.....
T

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Actually I don't know where you're assuming that from.
I said nothing about the success difference between captive breeding and breeding in nature, my point was that we just dont know enough about tarantulas to say anything with the level of surety that "tarantulas dont feel pain" assumes.

FryLock said:

Pairing in captivity leads to at best a 15% success rate :?, Maybe with some of the hardest species to breed but that figure would be a lot higher for many, Id be very interested to know who said this and what amount of breeding experience or data from others it was based on :?.

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http://www.e-spiderworld.com/breeding.htm

Just read it within the last week, so the number stuck in my head.
Note I did not say "at best", I said approximate.

Windchaser said:

I believe the pet shop fed you a load of bull. They were probably saying that to scare you. If it were true, the stuff you see on "Fear Factor" would never be allowed.

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hmmm....i see what you mean... :clap:



-Mattyb

Sterlingspider said:

Actually I don't know where you're assuming that from.
I said nothing about the success difference between captive breeding and breeding in nature, my point was that we just dont know enough about tarantulas to say anything with the level of surety that "tarantulas dont feel pain" assumes.

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I'm reading it from what you typed...Your jumping to conclusions then if you consider 15% not particulary successful, thats my point. No one knows the % in nature, so Hell 15% in captivity may well prove to be twice as good as in nature....See? :wall:
T

monantony said:

I'm reading it from what you typed...Your jumping to conclusions then if you consider 15% not particulary successful, thats my point. No one knows the % in nature, so Hell 15% in captivity may well prove to be twice as good as in nature....See? :wall:
T

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Despite how it compares to nature, how it compares to the rate we should be getting if we know all that much about tarantulas isn't very good. Few creatures (except maybe hymenopterans) have partucularly stellar success rates in nature.

I'd be somewhat surprised if wild dogs have a 15% success rate, but domestic dogs being bred or kept as breeding pets have a comparitively astronomical success rate because we actually know enough about them to optomize their environment for producing puppies.

My entire point was that there is not enough research. We do not know enough about tarantulas to optomize their success rate. Hence my comment. Simple as that. No further information implied.

Sterlingspider said:

Despite how it compares to nature, how it compares to the rate we should be getting if we know all that much about tarantulas isn't very good.

I'd be somewhat surprised if wild dogs have a 15% success rate, but domestic dogs being bred or kept as breeding pets have a comparitively astronomical success rate because we actually know enough about them to optomize their environment for producing puppies.
We do not know enough about tarantulas to optomize their success rate. Hence my comment. Simple as that.

My entire point was that there is not enough research.

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True on the last point, but really how much optimization does a simple invert need? MY point was w/o knowing the wild success rate you really cannot judge CB % good OR bad. simple as that. I would imagine though that in nature the % is not huge, given the large # of offspring. Low % success coupled with predation seems to beget large clutch #'s..
T