B. Smithi paralyzed fangs

I ordered a 3.5 inch female Brachypelma Smithi in december, and she has not eaten in my care. When I first recieved her, she refused food. I assumed that it was because of the stress of shipping/pre molt. A few weeks later I lost my Avicularia Avicularia to an infection of some type, likely fungal.

To this day she has not eaten in my care. Last night I tried to feed her a cricket, and watched as she smashed herself against the cricket. She wants to eat, but cannot. Today I removed her from her cage and examined her up close. Both fangs are paralyzed. I used a toothpick attempt to move them, and they seem stuck fast. She has now been isolated from the rest of the collection.

I know paralyzed fangs are a symptom of fungal/nematode infections, HOWEVER, I have not seen the characteristic discharge around the mouth which my A. Avicularia suffered from.


I am thinking of attempting some options:
1. Attempt to use nystatin oral to stop the possible fungal infections.

Cons: I have no idea if she even has a fungal infection. She has no discharge, so I am unsure what to sample and send to REISM (who are/were located in the same town as me), or whether REISM can help.

2. Attempt to hand feed her, as in this thread. Hope the paralysis goes away.

Cons: It's a B. Smithi, finicky eaters. May not cure the underlying problem.

Update, neutral and bad news

Semi-update:
Neutral news
She has been dropped off at the Research Institute for Exotic Species Microbiology and is being examined. No word has reached me yet, as she is still being examined. I do plan on attempting a cure for whatever it is. Possibly cipro or mebendazole.

Bad news. My 4.5 inch Theraphosa Blondi, my favorite spider, has now come down with the mystery illness. She last molted in Mid-March, and she last ate 8 days ago on 04/16/2006. The chelicrae can spread somewhat, but the fangs have no movement. With the B. Smithi even the chelicrae were paralyzed. I am hoping this is due to my early detection. Since both spiders were next to each other on the shelf I have been watching the T. Blondi VERY carefully. The charateristic discharge of nematodes has NOT been seen with this spider, nor was any seen with the B. Smithi.

Updates to follow. If I successfully cure this in one or more spiders I will post step by step instructions. If the disease continues, and is uncurable, I will attempt to describe it's symptoms and progress.

Wow I'm really sorry to hear that--definately keep us updated!
Where did you get the smithi from?

Possible natural causes?

Whiskeypunk- Is it a possible natural physical cause somehow? what common traits did any of them share? substrate? could it be some type of virus, or a bacteria of some type? besides substrate what prey items are you sharing among them? where did you obtain the food items? what has changed recently? anything at all? it seems that there is some common connection here. Could there be spores or some type of as yet undetected mold of some type? two different species with seemingly the same type of issues would at least indicate a connection of some type happening there. Do you keep all your Ts in the same location? can you move them from that location for now to see what affect that might have? what about water? do you use tap water? could there be an issue with something in the water possibly? anything..

I have already been thinking about your questions:

bonesmama said:

Where did you get the smithi from?

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A reputable dealer here on the boards. According to personal communication, he doesn't sell a spider that hasn't eaten in his care without warning the customer. Also, she was very plump when I got her.

ancientscout said:

Whiskeypunk- Is it a possible natural physical cause somehow? what common traits did any of them share? substrate?

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All are on the same substrate, 50/50 Cheap bale of peat moss from Lowes / Cedar Grove* organic potting soil. I DO sterilize my peat moss. Lately I have been wondering if I am merely killing beneficial commensul organisms, and allowing an environment that promotes the growth of nastier organisms.

could it be some type of virus, or a bacteria of some type?

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I hope it isn't a virus. If it is a bacteria I may be able to treat it with some form of antibiotic. If nematodes I will do the same thing as this post. Through personal communication, one the members of RIESM successfully treated a nematode infected B. Smithi with cipro and a DMSO piggyback.

besides substrate what prey items are you sharing among them? where did you obtain the food items?

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Crickets from Petco and a local store called Pet Pourri. Mealworms from my own colony, some from petco, and some from pet pourri. I also have a Blaberus Discoid roach colony, from a reputable dealer, I have had since october. Most of my Ts have had no problems with these prey items but I am unsure if the problem could have started here.

what has changed recently?

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All Ts substrates were changed in the very first week January due to a mite (VERY LIKELY booklice) infestation. My Ts are no longer kept next to my bookshelf, which is filled with used books. I have not had a problem with mites since I removed the bookshelf.

it seems that there is some common connection here. Could there be spores or some type of as yet undetected mold of some type? two different species with seemingly the same type of issues would at least indicate a connection of some type happening there.

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My attitude is that I was the vector between the two cages. At some point the B. Smithi caught the disease. Perhaps the T. Blondi caught the disease after I used tongs to remove a cricket from the Smithi's cage, then used the tongs to drop a cricket or a roach into the Blondi's cage. The mold theory is also possible as I do live in the Pacific Northwest near Seattle. However NO mold has been spotted in my room, or the Ts cages.

Do you keep all your Ts in the same location? can you move them from that location for now to see what affect that might have?

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Yes I do, and this is being done this weekend. Already my Pre-molt G. Aureostriata sling/juvenile has been moved, her cage was next to the Smithi's cage. It has not eaten in FOREVER, but it has been noticably in pre-molt as long as it hasn't eaten, and this spider has my longest pre-molt periods.

what about water? do you use tap water? could there be an issue with something in the water possibly? anything..

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Doubtful. I do use tap water. Our city owns it's own water supply in the Cascade Mountains, and it is some of the best in the country, and some of the best I've ever tasted. I also work in the city's records department as a student worker and I have personally seen many of our water records. I trust our city water.

My next step is this weekend I am going to get my P. Regalis out and see if I can her to throw a threat display.

*Contains no actual cedar

problem

Whiskeypunk- I wish I could offer more suggestions but it looks as though we've kicked it around as far as it can go with being able to help you myself. But the roaches did sound interesting.. I hope everything turns out alright. Keep posting as there are others on here that know more than I do thats for sure. Sorry to hear about this.

Sounds the same. as mine what do I do?

It seems the same thing is happening w/ my Golden Knee... So what can I do about it?

OrthoBen said:

It seems the same thing is happening w/ my Golden Knee... So what can I do about it?

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The deal is that Tarantula Microbiology/diseases are still a very new area of the hobby.

From various threads here and personal communication I plan on trying Cipro with a DMSO piggyback As in this thread. Unless, of course, the sickness is not treatable by an Anti-biotic. A B. Smithi with nematodes was successfully treated by Bodisky of REISM a few years back. I am unsure if it is nematodes or not.

Us western washington residents are lucky in that we have these people located in everett about 15 blocks from my house. My Smithi is being examined right now.

I have no idea how to use/mix a DMSO piggyback. Once I get the results on my B. Smithi back, I am going to consult my doctor (for the prescriptions), and Larry of REISM on proper mixing techniques.

Could you post your husbandry info, such as substrate, water source, food source, and any other info on how you keep the spider? and where you got your spider? If our spiders came from the same source then maybe we need to contact the dealer and tell them to check stock.

All i can tell you is that you should check the "index cases" (first cases) tank for any mold or fungus. It is probable that you accidenlty spread the illness with your tools, this has happened lots of times. As said before, tarantula epidemiology is a new field and little is known about this illness, could be a new nematode or bacteria.

Whiskeypunk said:

Could you post your husbandry info, such as substrate, water source, food source, and any other info on how you keep the spider? and where you got your spider? If our spiders came from the same source then maybe we need to contact the dealer and tell them to check stock.

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Substrate - Bedabeast

Water source - filtered tap water

Food Source - Crickets purchased at Petsmart and PetPourri in Everett Washington.

Temp always low 70s

Humidity Digital readout between 50 and 60%

OrthoBen said:

Substrate - Bedabeast

Water source - filtered tap water

Food Source - Crickets purchased at Petsmart and PetPourri in Everett Washington.

Temp always low 70s

Humidity Digital readout between 50 and 60%

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Purchased from Southern Spider works on line

OrthoBen said:

Substrate - Bedabeast

Water source - filtered tap water

Food Source - Crickets purchased at Petsmart and PetPourri in Everett Washington.

Temp always low 70s

Humidity Digital readout between 50 and 60%

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Interesting, the only things we have similar is that we purchased Crix at PetPourri and our locations in this area of western washington. I doubt it is the Crix from the store because Skypainter fed his tarantulas crix from there, and the Smithi was sick before I ever purchased anything from there.

OrthoBen said:

Purchased from Southern Spider works on line

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I got mine from reptist. looks like that's a dead end too.

Now my Flame knee is the same way...

My flame knee sling (along w/ my golden knee as mentioned previously) is doing the same thing now. Attacks the Crix, but doesn't seem able to use it's fangs... Everything else looks fine, no mold. Please post if you find a remedy. I am still suspicious of the crix since we got them from the same place.

OrthoBen said:

My flame knee sling (along w/ my golden knee as mentioned previously) is doing the same thing now. Attacks the Crix, but doesn't seem able to use it's fangs... Everything else looks fine, no mold. Please post if you find a remedy. I am still suspicious of the crix since we got them from the same place.

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Do you have an approximate date for when you last bought crickets at PetPourri? I got my last batch about 3-4 weeks ago, just before the rest of my collection got sick. Maybe there is something to it. Then againl, I have recently purchased G. Rosea from there that has been doing fine.

Also, the mystery illness has spread to about 1/3 of my collection: B. Smithi, G. Pulchra, T. Blondi, and maybe P. Regalis* now cannot use fangs.

*Real fun pulling this one out of it's cage. Hard to to tell if it's fangs are paralyzed because it strikes so fast.

More neutral news. No one has died yet

Turns out my e-mail is broken, so I have 10 dollar late fee for books I thought I'd returned to the library.

This means that Larry has not recieved my e-mails about the spreading infection and the possible Pet-pourri cricket connection. So, today I stopped by to discuss my tarantulas. Due to our state's arcane pharmacuetical laws, he is having a bit of trouble getting the drugs he needs. If he can swing it we will begin treatment on the sick spiders.

This weekend I will be replacing ALL my spiders with vermiculite substrate, PVC pipe hides, and ceramic water dishes. Vermiculite apparently desicates nematode worms, and if it is a nematode infection, then this will help. If it is bacterialogical then hopefully, the inorganic materials will help retard the growth of the bacteria by giving them less organic material to feed on.

Partial Success?

So we may have a partial success. Why can't these stupid animals follow the rules. Larry described himself as "flummoxed" when he walked into the office today.

My sick B. Smithi has MOLTED!?

Today, I met with Larry again, he began treatments with a cipro/DMSO derivative and a de-wormer. Apparently the reason de-wormers have not worked in the past on nematode infected tarantulas is that the nematodes DO NOT actually kill the spider. Instead commensal bacteria inside the nematodes cause the fang paralysis and the eventual death of the spider. Killing only the nematodes leaves the dangerous bacteria. HOWEVER, we have not actually seen nematodes. SO the illness I will continue calling a mystery illness.

So, Larry has been treating my B. Smithi with the above medications since friday. Last night the T seemed on it's last legs. This morning there was a brand new, beautiful FEMALE* B. Smithi.

I mentioned stupid rules the animal follows. In an ideal world the B. Smithi would have been cured and instead of MOLTING, would have started eating again.

Questions this raises:

1. Was the B. Smithi female in pre-molt, and it's fangs lost mechanical action due to it's molting, PLEASE POST any theories on the fangs HERE, so as to keep this thread free of speculation.

One detail: My T. Blondi molted in late March and has eaten twice before fang paralysis occured. It is unlikely that it is in pre-molt. Also this one once ate 2 days prior to a molt. So I am suspicious of this, and this leads to the next question:

2. Did we cure the disease enough to where the B. Smithi was able to successfully molt and the timing is merely a coincidence?

*I bought it as a female, but JUST making sure.

Hello!
Larry and I were discussing this case just this evening.
The B. smithi that I treated with DMSO and cipro (nematode case 2003/2004)also molted promptly after treatment. I too thought her at deaths door before it happened. The only difference during the molt that I saw that was even remotely remarkable was that after she flipped over to begin to molt her twitching was abnormal, almost violent. Scared me to death and I have seen a lifetime of molts. I was thinking a million things like "Did I overdose her? Are we seeing a reaction to the DMSO or Cipro?" But she molted into a beatiful T. However, her fangs were abnormal in size and shape although it did not affect her appetite. I suspect that this was from the application of the treatment. Her case was photographed and documented for my ATS presentation in 2004. If you need a copy holler at me.
I have used the same treatment on one other nematode case but with no luck. The T's infestation in that particular case was far more advanced.
The donor of the B. smithi knew something was wrong and sent her to me right away. So time was on our side in that case.
Kerry Gowin
RIESM
P.S. Vermiculite, pvc etc hospital as you spoke of is of the utmost importance. Hospital details are also in the presentation. Humidity is overrated and causes more problems than it solves.

Interesting. VERY interesting.

I wonder if the "after treatment molt" is a forced molt, and the final stage of overcoming the sickness. Like the T sheds it's skin to replace damaged and diseased skin, so it can start over new.

I wonder if molting without fangs may be caused by bacteria infection during the pre-molt period, and since the spider isn't eating, the sickness goes unoticed. Then the spider molts and it's fangs don't form properly.

BTW I just want to say that some of the stuff in this thread is my own opinion, some of it is merely idle speculation by ME. I have written most of this thread without consulting larry, so many of the opinions/speculations and thoughts are mine. Some of it is as factual as I can get with the knowledge we have. Some of it is completely untested hypothesis. I don't want someone referencing this thread, say in the calcium/fang loss debate, and saying see whiskey says it so it must be true.

As larry has said to me: "we simply don't know." And it's true. We were both shocked by the turn of events, and wondering exactly what happened.

Whiskeypunk said:

Interesting. VERY interesting.

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Whiskeypunk said:

I wonder if the "after treatment molt" is a forced molt, and the final stage of overcoming the sickness. Like the T sheds it's skin to replace damaged and diseased skin, so it can start over new.

Thats what I am thinking. Mother Nature just trying to take care of things.

I wonder if molting without fangs may be caused by bacteria infection during the pre-molt period, and since the spider isn't eating, the sickness goes unoticed. Then the spider molts and it's fangs don't form properly. Quote

Since there are so many things that may go wrong on the cellular level during the molt process anything is possible. One of my on going research projects is the chelicera and fangs. Over the past 8 years I have collected many pictures and data of normal fangs/chelicera and abnormal fangs/chelicera. All cases having different or normal life experiences. This was also a ATS presentation. I would have to dig to find the year.
As far as nematode presence causing cheliceral lockdown, I have the only microscopic picture of a nematode in the cheliceral tissue. (ATS 2004 presentation) Of course as Larry explained to you the bacteria that the nematode secretes and lives in does the damage, just eating away at the tissue. Once the nematodes enter the T's tissue thats it. For now anyway.


As larry has said to me: "we simply don't know." And it's true. We were both shocked by the turn of events, and wondering exactly what happened.

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Very true. We also want to state that the treatments that we are using are unproven and dangerous even if you know exactly what you are doing. RIESM has always been here to help and we just relay what we know and to remind what is unproven and speculation.
Thank you so much for your kind donations. Here is another chance to learn something new!
Kerry Gowin
RIESM

Update:

The T. Blondi has been cured and is doing much better. She has eaten 1 prekilled cricket and 2 live ones. She looks noticably better. I will be taking both of them home tommorow.

BUT, that B. Smithi has done something else very weird. During the course of the treatment she not only molted, but she just laid an unwrapped eggsack. Yep, there is a big pile of goo with these little specks in it. When viewed under a microscope they were eggs. Was she gravid? How, if she is CB? Does this mean I have WC B. Smithi? Or were the eggs merely unfertilized, and that's why it was unwrapped.

Larry will be going away for a few weeks, and I will continue observations on the Smithi. Hopefully she refuses to eat because she despises her sterile lab container. They will placed back on substrate and isolated from the rest of my collection for a period of time.