Bite Protocol?

[The Snark]

First, could somebody take McGuiverstein out and shoot him for a bit? Thanks.

I'm weighing in here purely as a paramedic. First and foremost, do NOT administer ANY first aid that you do not fully understand and know the potential side effects and contraindications. Let's make that sentence crystal clear. Side effects. Any physiological effect upon a body other than the specific purpose effect of the treatment. This includes potential allergic reactions (anaphylaxis), very common. Another very common side effect is antiplatelet caused by aspirin which can cause hemorrhage (bleeding).
The two reasons for this are the countless injuries people suffer from the treatment of an injury, IE, compounding the tragedy. Or as one doctor succinctly put it, 'Try to leave the patient in better condition than when you started messing about'. The other reason is your treatment may cloud, obscure, or conceal symptoms that will be used to diagnose and determine proper treatment. As example, the age old battlefield treatment of knocking the patient on his/her arse with a half grain of morphine (pain killer) and the doctors hands are tied and they cannot perform many therapeutic procedures until the stuff wears off as it effects the vitals and conceals or disrupts many normal physiological responses.

Tourniquets. Never use unless properly trained. NEVER. If a tourniquet is applied it must be constantly monitored by a properly trained medic or person of greater training. There are two types of tourniquet. Venous and arterial. If you don't know all the properties and effects of both, forget it. Indirect cooling, ice or cold pack, is just as effective in slowing the spread of a toxin. Never apply ice to bare skin. Wrap in cloth first.

Epinephrine, synthetic adrenaline, aka epi pen. Used to counteract shock, especially anaphylaxis shock. The dose you get from an epi pen is about the same as you get from the local anesthetic the dentist uses. If you have ever felt your heartbeat start to race after the dentist numbs you up, it's not just because of the anticipation of a long slow root canal. Epi is the zoom drug. Go watch that scene in Pulp Fiction. Epinephrine is also a vasoconstrictant. It slows the venous blood flow which keeps the anesthetic around the nerves the dentist is mangling and maiming. Again, one doc did an aside to me about epi pens, 'Get within yelling distance of the emergency room door and give yourself a shot to see how you react'. IE, it's pretty harmless, and if you have known allergies and are around things that bite a lot, it doesn't hurt to have it on hand. It is suggested that if you are having a bite reaction or suspect that is coming down, call for medical assistance and advise the dispatcher you are administering or have administered an epi pen. For those who want to try epi as a recreational drug high, consider finding some other way of sending your heart rate and blood pressure through the roof.

Hydrogen peroxide. It's thirsty. Big time hungry thirsty. It has a molecular problem. It's missing an atom, or has one too many, depending how you look at it. When you applied it to a wound and it foams, it's blowing up damaged cells in search of that atom. This is good. Really. Damaged cells are the ones that get infected first and spread the infection the most. That also helps to get rid of some of the venom in the wound. Repeatedly flood the wound with the stuff. There are no side effects as used hydrogen peroxide becomes dihydrogen oxide, aka water.

Dimethylxanthine, aka chocolate. Psychoactive central nervous system stimulant. Naww. You don't need that. BUT! BUT BUT BUT BUT!!!! If there is any reason to suspect, ANY REASON, that anaphylaxis or nervous system disorders may come down, please don't eat or drink anything. In paramedic parlance we call that loading the cannon. You may become nauseated. Drowning on your own vomit is a very sucky way to go out and the big spit really makes CPR harder and very messy.

Aspirin, Excedrin and similar. (Excedrin is a combination of aspirin, paracetamol (acetaminophen) and caffeine). Aspirin is a blood thinner. Not all that good an idea. Paracetamol isn't that good an idea either as the threshold between therapeutic dose and lethal can be a bit fuzzy. Caffeine? See dimethylxanthine.

Alcohol wipes. Moderately effective in reducing/preventing infection if scrubbed pretty hard. Povidone iodine Betadyne<tm> is much more effective.

Band aids. Natch. Let's keep the dirt out.

If you have taken any drug keep track of it. If you need to see a physician, tell him what you have ingested. This is especially important with prescribed medications. Also, know the side effects and contraindications of all drugs you ingest, be it recreational, OTC or prescribed.

Ingesting alcoholic beverages. You've already got a problem. Suppressing the central nervous system and general physiological responses isn't likely to help.

 

[Poec54]

'Try to leave the patient in better condition than when you started messing about'.

Isn't that the first rule of the Hippocratic Oath? "I swear by Apollo the healer, and I take witness to all the gods and goddesses, to keep according to my ability and judgement, the patient in better shape then when I got my hands on him" or something to that effect, my Greek is rusty. There's also something about "preserving the purity of my life and arts" but frankly, I don't see what painting has to do with it.

 

[Stan Schultz]

+1. Spiders are so strange in so many of their adaptations and behaviors, as your excellent book goes into detail on. Using pedipapls to mate with? Sperm webs? Liquifying food before swallowing it? Silk? The list goes on. God only knows how all of these things evolved. Sure makes them interesting though.

Space aliens. Gonna take over the Earth.
:
Before you know it they'll be EVERYWHERE!

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!


Oh! Wait! They already live almost everywhere!
:sneaky:

:roflmao:

The more people I meet the more I like my tarantulas!

 

[McGuiverstein]

First, could somebody take McGuiverstein out and shoot him for a bit? Thanks.

Easy man, just a bit of jocularity. I'd hope no one would take it as serious advice.

Your post, however, was very comprehensive and informative. Interesting to see some info from someone with actual paramedic experience.

 

[ReclusiveDemon]

What's the point of tying off the finger? The finger needs blood flow or you create a new set of problems; you can't leave a tourniquet on for long. Tourniquets slow the spread of venom, buying time until antivenin arrives, which doesn't exist for tarantulas (and if it did, it wouldn't be available in the US). You can't stop venom from spreading once it's been injected, it goes throughout the body regardless, so what is accomplished if you could slow it down? Help is not on the way. The 'symptoms' in this dramatic event disappeared on their own, the 'treatment' was symbolic but pointless, if anything worsened by what the victim did.

The fangs of an adult/subadult tarantula are 1/2" to 1" long. How can you squeeze out venom that's been injected that deep into tissue? Even if a small amount could be squeezed out, it would have to be done within several seconds of the bite, and that time might be spent prying the spider off your finger. If you get bit, you basically have to ride it out. It doesn't seem like you're ready for that.

The best course of action is to prevent bites in the first place by working with your spiders responsibly, and not handling them. Stick to slow, docile species for now and work your way up. Take your time. You're not ready for anything fast or defensive yet. Nobody this concerned is going to have the required nerves for those species. And there's no shame in that. There's nothing to prove to anyone. Why have a spider you can't control or are afraid of? Think of the people you live with if there's an escape. I've been doing this for decades, and there's still some species I don't look forward to doing cage transfers with. Some long-term T owners won't keep OW's. There's plenty of beautiful species for every skill/experience level. Stick with what you're comfortable with. And that's how you keep from getting bitten. This should be an enjoyable, low stress hobby.

Not quite sure what you're suggesting that I do. I've already bought the spider, it's my responsibility now, and it isn't going anywhere. I understand that you have a conservative approach to the hobby, and that you think I should gradually accustom myself to faster, meaner, and more potent species. I honestly don't see it as being that large of a difficulty jump. I already have a Psalmopoeus sp., which from what I hear bears similarities to the Pokeys. You know, there are worse spiders that I could have ended up with. P. metallica at least has a reputation (purported by some people, not all) of being a relatively easy species to deal with, at least as easy as a pokey can be. And they don't get as large as some of the other Pokeys, so it won't grow into a 10-inch black and white bullet train with fangs. Is this an ideal step forward? No, but I don't think it's outrageous. While it's small, I can familiarize myself with their speed, so that I'm better prepared to watch over it as it grows up. What do you think I am going to do, try to poke it with my finger? I do cage maintenance/rehouses in the bathroom so that it can't climb into every nook and cranny in my room, and I keep a catch cup right beside me.

I thought that this would be pertinent information now that I have an OW spider. I am not afraid of this spider like you're insinuating. I only thought that now would be a good time to get some information (before getting it would have been best, but better late then never?). This is enjoyable for me, it's exciting to have such a beautiful species. And it's been letting me look at it, not hiding all that much (it has substrate to dig into, and sphagnum moss to lay down webbing, so it's not due to lack of retreats). While I was feeding and watering it last night, it was not skittish at all. It ate like a pig. I like this spider, and I intend to raise it.

 

[spiderbesideher]

Sorry to dig up an old thread but this is something I've been wondering about. I've had a variety of mostly NW species over the last ten years, with the most "potent" item in my collection being an OBT. So far so good, no bites yet. I'm not a handler and don't really disturb them much besides feeding and twice yearly enclosure maintenance.

I've always had an eye on a pokie, specifically a P. metallica, as my "someday" tarantula. But I have always been put off by the high price, horror stories of their behavior and of course potent venom. I know tarantula venom composition varies distinctly by species and originating region - obviously a new world tarantula bite is more localized, mild pain; while old world species can have long lasting, highly painful and neurological effects.

I thought this was an interesting article pertaining to a medically documented bit of a Poecilotheria (obviously I understand tarantula bites within the hobby are greatly minimized and underreported to the medical community for many reasons including public perception and lack of help when we do report... But I do also wish we had more studies and research into this area)

http://m.livescience.com/41795-tarantula-bites-harmful.html

I thought this article was also interesting especially since it suggests that the mechanism may be related to the spider's saliva, not only the venom:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0041010177901015

Then there's this nutjob:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3033629/Woman-allows-pet-tarantula-bite-hand.html


I have also heard multiple sources insist that heat helps break down the venom itself and the best thing to do it run the area under hot running water as hot as you can stand... From what I understand, most tarantula venoms are enzyme based which are very heat sensitive, although I do not know what that threshold is and imagine it would vary by species/locale.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140506/ncomms4765/full/ncomms4765.html

Thanks again in advance for the advice and any contributions!

 

[Storm76]

/nevermind - revival of an old thread...nothing to add

 

[The Snark]

Re: spiderbesideher Venoms and effects. I'd suggest a new thread directly querying this to get the most input. Also, contacting Widowman10, who has done quite a bit of research on venom properties, might be in order.

Saliva. Salivary content may vary drastically due to numerous variables. Assume it is always present in a bite wound, along with bacteria.

Heat. That is entirely your call. With the exception of specifically qualified medical personnel present, extreme heat or cold is never prescribed. Cold is predictable but heat can have profound physiological effects at the injury site and to the body in general. If you want to experiment breaking down venom components, it's your business. Be aware you will also be drastically accelerating blood profusion as well as possibly causing hemolysis. (Rupturing red blood cells and releasing their content into the plasma.)


To give an example of the limits of medical trauma intervention and treatment. It has been demonstrated that splashing ice water or applying ice to a persons face MAY induce the 'diving reflex'. A autonomic function that causes blood to concentrate in the central body and brain. This has on occasion extended the 'three golden minutes' of resuscitating a patient who has stopped breathing or the heart has stopped beating for as long as an hour. HOWEVER, it is NOT PREDICTABLE and thus we cannot use it on code blues.