Can you keep a species too dry?

awiec

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I'd be interested to know about any tarantula species that lives in a bone dry microclimate. The average humidity of their general habitat's less important than where and how they live in it. You'd think South Western Aphonopelma species hang out in the open, basking in the desert sun if you believe caresheets, but the reality is they're found in cool, humid burrows or under rocks. You can see condensation in A. chalcodes burrows at the height of summer in Phoenix. They can handle arid conditions well, but they're not going to thrive.

Bone dry with a water dish can work for Aphonopelma spp., but they don't burrow and aren't particularly active. Substrate moisture frequently leads to burrowing and less of a pet rock.
I prefer wetting the tunnels a little than just over flowing the water dish as that is something I keep in mind. Granted I'm not dumping water down there but a little water trickling in does not seem to hurt anything.
 

Ellenantula

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I wouldn't mind finding a list somewhere of moisture requirements (List of dry-to-damp conditions with Ts listed under each category).
I was keeping A seemanni too dry -- NW terrestrial -- who knew? I hope I am not guilty of keeping my others too dry.
My slings always get a half-moist container, but adults? As dry as possible with water dish because I have some weird mold-aphobia/mite-aphobia thing going on.
Like my GBB just moulted -- I keep her super dry and didn't even add moisture when I saw her flip. Now I wonder -- should I have added some moisture? With others, I do add a dampened area with moult imminent, but not for GBB.

Good thread -- lots of food for thought....
 

Poec54

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I wouldn't mind finding a list somewhere of moisture requirements (List of dry-to-damp conditions with Ts listed under each category).
I was keeping A seemanni too dry -- NW terrestrial -- who knew? I hope I am not guilty of keeping my others too dry.
My slings always get a half-moist container, but adults?

Look at the regions they're from. High rainfall tropics means moist substrate. Places with long dry seasons and winter rainfall mean drier substrate.
 

Ellenantula

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Hey -- with using all this latin and binomial nomenclature instead of common names -- how should I know where mine come from? :angelic:

Seriously, for some of my Ts, geography alone may not help me. I understand some have large ranges -- incl. higher & lower elevations, with some areas possibly receiving more rain than other areas in the same country.
Plus, being practical, I like to know how others have successfully kept theirs in captivity.

And I'd like to know the range of dryness to dampness.
Right now, I might consider OBT and GBB as extremely dry-kept Ts; but for other Ts, how much moisture is beneficial?
When someone suggests to dampen one corner of enclosure vs saturate half the substrate -- THAT distinction I understand.

Just a thought -- maybe there is already a list somewhere.
 

AphonopelmaTX

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Thanks for all the replies, gives me some stuphs to think about.

Let me add one clarification that I should have put in the original post...all my Ts have water bowls as soon as their enclosures are large enough for one so I'm not talking about a totally dry cage with no access to water. I'm really meaning 'too dry' as not worrying about damp sub or overrunning the water bowl or that type of thing. Since everyone always has access to fresh water there is no worry of dehydration even from the little bit of water lost thru respiration.

I guess a better question would have been, "Given that fresh water is always available, does Species X really need to be kept on damp sub?"
You posed your question in a way that doesn't have a definite yes or no answer. The answer is that it depends on where "species x" comes from and what adaptations it has evolved to combat desiccation. Providing drinking water will allow a spider to hydrate itself, providing a humid microclimate in captivity by way of moist substrate prevents the water from leaving the spider's body for those species that exhibit signs of a more permeable exoskeleton.

I would like to elaborate a bit on why respiration could be a small, almost negligible source of water loss. In an organism, there are multiple sources of water loss with some sources being a sources of greater loss than others. The tarantula's book lungs are very well protected from the outside air by hardened chitinous plates. Also, the tarantula's respiratory system is passive and incredible slow meaning it does not use muscles to breath in and out like a vertebrate and gas exchange is extremely slow (compared to vertebrates). These two factors reduce the amount of moisture loss from the book lungs. Given how quickly some tropical species of tarantulas appear to dehydrate in captivity, there should be a larger means of moisture loss which is why I believe there is variability in the permeability of the cuticles that make up the exoskeleton.

Humidity, in this case moist substrate, is an abiotic factor of a microclimate that provides several benefits to an organism including tarantulas. It provides a more constant temperature and helps prevent moisture loss. To a tarantula, these are important factors to regulate their physiological functions. In captivity, these abiotic factors must be provided through proper husbandry. Provide moist substrate to increase humidity for those species that need it to prevent desiccation and to provide heat to allow proper metabolic function. Now compare this to another animal we are all familiar with, humans, where our comfort and temperature regulation is done by sweating and the drying of that fluid. In a high humidity environment, the sweat is unable to dry and we are left unable to cool off thus we do better in a drier environment. Of course, like our invertebrate friends, the region of the world we come from dictates what adaptions we have to abiotic environmental conditions like heat and humidity.

Lets observe a tropical species of tarantula, such as a Theraphosa species. If you provide fresh drinking water at all times and let the substrate dry out the spider will eventually start sitting next to the source of water or dump the water out into the substrate. As I stated in my previous reply, a species from an arid climate, such as Grammostola rosea, will eventually do the same thing but take much longer to do so. I believe this behavior to be the spider providing more humidity to prevent desiccation. It also could be behavior indicating that the spider needs a drink but is unable to do so from the dish, cup, or whatever provided. Tarantulas need a source of water that can stand over to cover their mouths. Water dishes need to be buried in the substrate where the top is level with the substrate.

I hope this provides a good answer to your question and provides some more food for thought when thinking about they "why" in some aspects of tarantula husbandry.

---------- Post added 05-19-2015 at 10:53 PM ----------

I'd be interested to know about any tarantula species that lives in a bone dry microclimate. The average humidity of their general habitat's less important than where and how they live in it. You'd think South Western Aphonopelma species hang out in the open, basking in the desert sun if you believe caresheets, but the reality is they're found in cool, humid burrows or under rocks. You can see condensation in A. chalcodes burrows at the height of summer in Phoenix. They can handle arid conditions well, but they're not going to thrive.

Bone dry with a water dish can work for Aphonopelma spp., but they don't burrow and aren't particularly active. Substrate moisture frequently leads to burrowing and less of a pet rock.
This is a very good post. I can further attest to the main idea here by sharing my observations of Aphonopelma hentzi in my city. During the hot, dry summers in Texas Aphonopelma hentzi will plug their burrows during the day and open them at night. If it is especially hot and dry, the majority of the population I study do not even unplug the burrows at night. I imagine the spiders reduce their metabolisms to prevent the need for food and water while sitting in those closed burrows.

Also, Martha Yanez and Graham Floater published a paper in 2000 titled "Spatial distribution and habitat preference of the endangered tarantula, Brachypelma klaasi (Araneae: Theraphosidae) in Mexico." In this study the authors were able to determine that high night time humidity was a significant factor in burrow location of B. klaasi. This supports the notion that even a Brachypelma species thought to need "bone dry" substrate may fair better in captivity with some moisture in the substrate.

---------- Post added 05-19-2015 at 11:09 PM ----------

And I'd like to know the range of dryness to dampness.
Right now, I might consider OBT and GBB as extremely dry-kept Ts; but for other Ts, how much moisture is beneficial?
When someone suggests to dampen one corner of enclosure vs saturate half the substrate -- THAT distinction I understand.

Just a thought -- maybe there is already a list somewhere.
People and their lists... What you are asking for will provide the same information as the recommended humidity levels in a care sheet that so many abhor. The keeper who hasn't had a lot of experience with a lot of different species of tarantula will usually fail to realize that most species can tolerate a wide variety of humidity/ moisture levels. I understand the emphasis is more on providing the best care for one's pets but because tarantulas are cryptic in their behavior, and they certainly can't tell you verbally, there needs to be some desire for experimentation to find answers. Go ahead an pour a cup of water in the Chromatopelma cyanopubescens or Pternochilus murinus enclosure and see what happens.
 
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Ellenantula

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People and their lists... What you are asking for will provide the same information as the recommended humidity levels in a care sheet that so many abhor. The keeper who hasn't had a lot of experience with a lot of different species of tarantula will usually fail to realize that most species can tolerate a wide variety of humidity/ moisture levels. I understand the emphasis is more on providing the best care for one's pets but because tarantulas are cryptic in their behavior, and they certainly can't tell you verbally, there needs to be some desire for experimentation to find answers. Go ahead an pour a cup of water in the Chromatopelma cyanopubescens or Pternochilus murinus enclosure and see what happens.
:cool: Looking at your join date -- you already have the list I want -- in your head!
I would be afraid to experiment -- still a beginner -- might accidentally kill my Ts. I have used search function on AB to try and find out about each T I have but would still love a list re: varying degrees of moisture vs dryness that had worked best for others. And as a beginner, I joined AB believing dry meant 'sahara' and moist meant 'swamp.' Understanding the varying degrees would be helpful -- I don't want my Ts survival to be based on my sheer dumb luck or just their hardiness in terms of moisture variance. I'd rather utilize expert's experiences for my husbandry at this point. I know the advice I received here on my A seemanni received a few months ago (she was one I had kept too dry) is probably to credit for her recent successful moult.
 

TsunamiSpike

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How about H. Lividum? Often seen a lot of debate on dry or moist substrate for these guys..
 

Poec54

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How about H. Lividum? Often seen a lot of debate on dry or moist substrate for these guys..
Why would anyone keep an Asian terrestrial dry? Chris Allen, the big Asian collector/breeder in the US keeps all of his on moist substrate. Asians can easily dehydrate.

Maybe there's some confusion with species from dry climates that need to be kept dry, like baboon spiders from east and south Africa. Those will die in moist cages.
 
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Storm76

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Yes it can, and with dire consequences. Most tarantula species grow in the tropics and subtropics, with high rainfall (at least part of the year) and high humidity. They've spent millions of years in those habitats. Keep some of them dry and you'll lose them, just like with plants. Those that have rain for most or all of the year don't need to conserve and keep moisture loss to a minimum. I keep all of my 100 species on moist substrate, except for Avics, baboon spiders from east and south Africa, and species from SW USA and northern Mexico.

What's the aversion to humidity and moisture? Been reading recommendations about keeping all tarantulas as dry as possible? Bad advice. Those people haven't kept many tropicals, and/or don't understand cross ventilation. It's pointless to keep rainforest terrestrials dry.
I'm gonna pick up on that and say that I'm baffled everytime that I read people keeping A. geniculata bonedry. Sure, you can do that. Should you? No, not by a long-shot. Their habitat is close to a damn and quite moist all year hence and like most T's, they will adapt to some point but that doesn't mean they "feel comfy". And by experience with E. murinus I've witnessed a female that was kept bone-dry behave extremely "unnatural" compared to other females. So, yes, it can influence behavior, feeding response, even generally if they're easily bothered or couldn't care less.

My suggestion? Before you buy a T, research the species including weather diagrams of their habitat, natural behavior aso. Then, despite that Stand says you cannot emulate exactly, try to get at least close to it. I like to see my T's behave as natural as possible given the captive conditions. So if a species requires more moisture, I tend to provide it. Why wouldn't I? It's not really that much more work for gods sake.
 

cold blood

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A dam isn't natural habitat, its habitat that's been recently adapted to.

Not disagreeing with you...just sayin'
 

awiec

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I like to watch the environmental changes that the range that my species are from experiences. I have a .75 inch P.regalis who would not molt for 6 months but was very plump and ate regularly. So I decided to emulate the monsoon and dry season that India experiences, I flooded for about 3 weeks and let it dry out for the next few week. Then about 2 weeks into the "dry season" she molted and has been a regular molter since then and is overall a more pleasant spider to deal with after I took the seasonal considerations in mind.
 

TsunamiSpike

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I'm gonna pick up on that and say that I'm baffled everytime that I read people keeping A. geniculata bonedry. Sure, you can do that. Should you? No, not by a long-shot. Their habitat is close to a damn and quite moist all year hence and like most T's, they will adapt to some point but that doesn't mean they "feel comfy". And by experience with E. murinus I've witnessed a female that was kept bone-dry behave extremely "unnatural" compared to other females. So, yes, it can influence behavior, feeding response, even generally if they're easily bothered or couldn't care less.

My suggestion? Before you buy a T, research the species including weather diagrams of their habitat, natural behavior aso. Then, despite that Stand says you cannot emulate exactly, try to get at least close to it. I like to see my T's behave as natural as possible given the captive conditions. So if a species requires more moisture, I tend to provide it. Why wouldn't I? It's not really that much more work for gods sake.
Funny thing is I thought that too, yet our A Genic seems to despise most substrate, refuses to come out and when she does she's on the walls. When it's dry she's out on full display.
 

Poec54

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Funny thing is I thought that too, yet our A Genic seems to despise most substrate, refuses to come out and when she does she's on the walls. When it's dry she's out on full display.
There's other factors it that too, like temp, humidity, and air movement, both in the cage and in the room.
 

Storm76

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Funny thing is I thought that too, yet our A Genic seems to despise most substrate, refuses to come out and when she does she's on the walls. When it's dry she's out on full display.
I didn't say I keep her on completely moist substrate. Half her substrate gets wetted down some, the other half stays dry. That way, the T can chose were to sit and she seemingly likes it that way. Once it's dried out, I repeat the process - all that in addition to an overly sized waterdish that provides additional humidity.
 

Chris LXXIX

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I didn't say I keep her on completely moist substrate. Half her substrate gets wetted down some, the other half stays dry. That way, the T can chose were to sit and she seemingly likes it that way. Once it's dried out, I repeat the process - all that in addition to an overly sized waterdish that provides additional humidity.
That's exactly how i keep my Acanthoscurria geniculata all the year.

---------- Post added 06-05-2015 at 09:08 PM ----------

"Can you keep a species too dry?"
I keep my bone dry T's on really, literally, bone dry substrate. With the water dish, of course.
Ceratogyrus marshalli, Pterinochilus murinus, Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens, Grammostola rosea... all bone dry.
 
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Poec54

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[/COLOR]"Can you keep a species too dry?"
I keep my bone dry T's on really, literally, bone dry substrate. With the water dish, of course.
Ceratogyrus marshalli, Pterinochilus murinus, Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens, Grammostola rosea... all bone dry.

But even those climates get some rain during the year. I'll lightly moisten those specie's substrates when it's warm and dry, and when I know it will evaporate soon. I don't want them staying on moist substrate for any length of time.
 

Chris LXXIX

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But even those climates get some rain during the year. I'll lightly moisten those specie's substrates when it's warm and dry, and when I know it will evaporate soon. I don't want them staying on moist substrate for any length of time.
But you see, where i live is more on the "hot and humid" than warm and dry, so i think the water dish is enough. Maybe i'm wrong, but.
 

Poec54

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But you see, where i live is more on the "hot and humid" than warm and dry, so i think the water dish is enough. Maybe i'm wrong, but.
Like I said, there's other factors indoors, like temps, humidity, air movement. Those are impacted by how much you run your fans, furnace, and/or a/c.
 
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