communal P regalis setup

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Reigningblood
I agreed with atmosphere and the results clearly support his argument.

If Holley's suspicions are correct, their deaths are a result of rehousing them immediately prior to moulting and then putting live prey in there...

How is that supporting atomosphere's emotional knee-jerk position?

Seriously, I'm as skeptical of there being any true communal aspects to Poecilotheria as I am life on the moon. Conversely, I have seen enough reports from people who have done it to say that they do appear to have some primitively social aspects. These are two different things. Possessing social aspects implies that with some bumps in the road you can probably maintain multiples in a well designed tank, and while you will get your domestic violence every now and again, you will not get the same homicidal sprees that multi-housed Avics are prone to undergo.

Holley made an error in judgment by tweaking with the setup more than was necessary, that hardly invalidates that this is something that can be done and has nothing to do with whether it should be done. Keepers have killed plenty of solitary tarantulas over the years by dumping 20 crickets in their aquarium 2 days before they moulted; might as well argue we shouldn't keep tarantulas singly or that we shouldn't feed them as try and take what happened here and use it as a counterargument to a multi-spider setup for Poecilotheria.

 

[Reigningblood]

Excuse me, when I said I agreed with him, I meant the "this is a waste of good tarantulas" statement.

2 of the pokes just "disappeared" with no trace of bodies or anything. You can only assume they were eaten.

You claimed that Holley was a respected, responsible, experienced keeper, if so, had she kept all 8 pokes individually, they would all be here alive today. By trying to simulate "communal homes" for pokes which are described in the wild, she can't keep track of the individuals as she could if they were all seperate. No keeping track of who is molting, going to molt, no keeping track of who needs food, who is getting too much, it is simply not worth the risk. Had she been what you claimed and kept them all seperate, she would have treated impending molts by removing crickets and such so that the spider may molt without technicalities.

I commend her for her devotion to tarantulas, but this "experiment" is simply a waste of tarantulas

 

[cricket54]

I'm so sorry to hear about the deaths. Bummer. Its nice to see the pictures of the Regalis's. My husband is really surprising me. On Valentines Day he went with me to the All Maryland reptile Expo and had me buy another tarantula for a Valentine present. I picked a A. Geniculata. He enjoyed himself there talking to people as he sat holding the little T. in the critter keeper. Now he tells me he is going to order me some tarantulas and had me look at which ones he wants me to get. One of them is a P.regalis. I think that I am ready for one of these and do not plan on handling it. He sure is surprising me because before he was complaining that I had too many. You just never know....

Sharon

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Reigningblood
Excuse me, when I said I agreed with him, I meant the "this is a waste of good tarantulas" statement.

2 of the pokes just "disappeared" with no trace of bodies or anything. You can only assume they were eaten.

And so what if they were?

These aren't dogs that have been domesticated and need to be protected from people that would pitfight them for their amusement, nor is that analogy even close to representing this situation. Holley set up a situation that occurs in trees all over their native habitat - sac mates vying for their own bit of space to live and maybe raise a family.

If some were eaten by each other, if some were eaten by crickets, it still doesn't cross over into irresponsible behavior because she knew exactly what the risks were going in. This wasn't someone who chose to listen to the pimple faced petstore clerk who said the pinktoes could be housed communally over us pointing out that they generally do cannibalise, this was someone fully cognizant of the situation. Now, maybe you wouldn't make that choice, she did, it's not your business.

As for the "waste of tarantulas" and "would still be alive" parts of your argument, the first is relative to the person, the second is pure speculation.

P. regalis is by no means scarce in the hobby and is bred regularly. Holley has bred many species, sent many males out there to breed, and has more than made up for a handfull of easily replaced spiders that died from essentially natural causes facilitated by their housing methods.

 

[Immortal_sin]

thanks CM
Reigningblood has a right to his/her opinion, and if he/she disagrees with me, so be it.
That being said, I chose to do this after weighing all the facts. I kept 2 out of the 10 originals separate in case of a 'worst case' scenario. I still believe it was/is a valid experiment. The 2 left in there are staying in there, to disturb them now would be idiotic, as I believe they are the last 2 in premolt. They have built a little house together, and the crickets can't get in.
I'm not going to post again, justifying my decisions...I've already done that. I'm just reporting honestly the results, as this can give information to others, and help them decide if this is something they want to try.
I will continue to update this thread for the benefit of everyone here at Arachnopets.
So, if you want to knock what I'm doing/have done, go right ahead. Just don't get personal!

 

[Joanie]

Hi Holley--I've been following this thread, and my only regret for you is that you didn't get a chance to house 6 pokies in a 100 gallon tank, which would've probably been pretty awesome.

This experiment isn't something I would do, but I'm really glad there are people like you who WILL do it, because it makes for some fascinating reading and adds to the collective arachnoculture information out there. (My single P. regalis is an eating machine....can't imagine feeding 10 of them!)

Condolences on the losses, and best of luck with your remaining 2!

Joanie

 

[Immortal_sin]

thanks Joanie..
I'm amending the number once again. I *thought* I had 2 dead ones, but upon closer inspection, the second 'dead' T was a molt, and a sucessful one at that. There are 3 left, all living together in a live plant setup.
I have 5 total, including the 2 I kept separated. That means at this point, a 50% loss total, and more like a 70% loss in the communal setup.
to recap...
Out of 8 total in the tank, 2 disappeared and were probably eaten by siblings, and 3 died shortly after molting, possibly due to crickets. None of the dead ones were cannabalised by their siblings.

 

[Reigningblood]

Originally posted by Code Monkey
Holley set up a situation that occurs in trees all over their native habitat - sac mates vying for their own bit of space to live and maybe raise a family.

As for the "waste of tarantulas" and "would still be alive" parts of your argument, the first is relative to the person, the second is pure speculation.

P. regalis is by no means scarce in the hobby and is bred regularly. Holley has bred many species, sent many males out there to breed, and has more than made up for a handfull of easily replaced spiders that died from essentially natural causes facilitated by their housing methods.

She failed to setup a situation that represents there native habitat, 20 crickets wouldn't storm a tree at once. And how is it speculation to believe that if she had kept them seperate that there would be no or close to no casaulties? I thought you said she was experienced! If she had more than a 15% casaulty rate among individually kept for spiders, then she should simply not be in this hobby because that shows negligence on her part. How was this experiment in any way, shape, or form a successful experiment where much new information was gathered? 5 pokes got killed for nothing in my eyes, but thats okay according to you. Holley has bred many spiders, so its okay if she kills off 5 like they are nothing in an "experiment." The 3 pokes that got iced by "natural causes" wouldn't likely die that way in their own natural enviornment.

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Reigningblood
The 3 pokes that got iced by "natural causes" wouldn't likely die that way in their own natural enviornment.

No, they'd have likely died some other way long before the "experiment" ever even got started.

 

[kellygirl]

@Holley--I'm sorry to hear about your losses but glad to hear that one more was alive than you estimated! I'm thankful for the info you're giving us because one day, way down the road, I'd like to try a communal tank myself. Your information is helping me to understand the risks and how to deal with them. Don't give up!!! Many of us are keeping up with this thread and I know that I, for one, am thankful for your honesty and your willingness to try this experiment.

@Reigningblood--There are so many different ways that tarantulas can die, in the wild or captivity. All it takes is ONE cricket to kill a tarantula in post molt. And maybe 20 crickets wouldn't storm a tree at once, but ants could, and they'd be in much greater numbers.

Tarantulas are pretty fragile creatures and some of them, even many of them, die prematurely! And just because deaths occur in captivity, it doesn't necessarily mean they are due to negligence. Deaths happen. Sometimes it is negligence, in this case it wasn't. Holley knows what she is doing. She made a mistake. She learned from it. There is no need to flame her or attack her character because she made a mistake.

I've lost 2 tarantulas to crickets before. I learned from it and it hasn't happened again since then. You can't always predict molts though! Some tarantulas will even eat the same day that they molt (A. geniculata comes to mind) and if it's eating, you might not think that leaving a couple of crickets in would be dangerous.

In my opinion, this was not at all a waste of tarantulas. What if the first people to keep tarantulas in captivity did something wrong or misunderstood the needs of the tarantulas and they died--and they responded to the death by saying, "Oh, that's a waste of life, we shouldn't keep these anymore and neither should you!" Voila, no hobby. We don't know a lot about communal living among tarantulas but we know that it occurs naturally in the wild with certain species/genera. We are learning more and more through trial and error. And sometimes, deaths will occur while we're learning--and that's ok.

Holley's tank was not a failure because we learned something from it. She knows more now than she did when she started the tank and the rest of us have the benefit of learning from her first attempt. I hope that she will give it another shot since she has the environment to do so.

And RB, please, no more personal attacks. Holley does not deserve it. She's opening herself up and letting herself be vulnerable by admitting mistakes. You don't need to kick her while she's down. I'm sure she is not thrilled with losing spiders, you don't need to give her the guilt trip on top of that.

-Kelly

 

[Malhavoc's]

I really like the idea of communal Set up and was thinking of trying with avics but I have read here and other palces it doesnt work too well. but! I was wondering you state that they live in colonies in the wild? any count on how many poecs are in one colony? that may help to determine the number of poe you could have per such a sized tank

 

[Reigningblood]

Originally posted by Code Monkey
No, they'd have likely died some other way long before the "experiment" ever even got started.

Point being that no spiders had to die at all.

 

[kellygirl]

Originally posted by Reigningblood
Point being that no spiders had to die at all.

????

 

[Malhavoc's]

now blood I am looking forward to meeting you and such but I must tell you, They do need to die otherwise the world would be overpopulated with them, yes taking them into captivity is a form of cruelty but \hers were msotl ikely captive bred so have known no other life and are bred for humans perpus hence making them human property yes maybe none of them needed to die but they did and we're still learning about them and this expermint is helping us greatly I fully support Immortal and I know alot of my views are frowned up hence the malhavoc madness for my nack of handlign spiders to prove their not that bad [especialy deffensive ones] yes I'll probably get bit but I've learned a very large amount on spider behavior and am becoming very good at reading tarantulas and htis too will help us all understnad hwo to better take care of them

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Reigningblood
Point being that no spiders had to die at all.

I think kelly already took this one but I'll put it more clearly, wth are you on? That doesn't even approach making sense.

 

[Reigningblood]

Originally posted by kellygirl
[B@Reigningblood--There are so many different ways that tarantulas can die, in the wild or captivity. All it takes is ONE cricket to kill a tarantula in post molt. And maybe 20 crickets wouldn't storm a tree at once, but ants could, and they'd be in much greater numbers.

Tarantulas are pretty fragile creatures and some of them, even many of them, die prematurely! And just because deaths occur in captivity, it doesn't necessarily mean they are due to negligence. Deaths happen. Sometimes it is negligence, in this case it wasn't. Holley knows what she is doing. She made a mistake. She learned from it. There is no need to flame her or attack her character because she made a mistake.

I've lost 2 tarantulas to crickets before. I learned from it and it hasn't happened again since then. You can't always predict molts though! Some tarantulas will even eat the same day that they molt (A. geniculata comes to mind) and if it's eating, you might not think that leaving a couple of crickets in would be dangerous.

In my opinion, this was not at all a waste of tarantulas. What if the first people to keep tarantulas in captivity did something wrong or misunderstood the needs of the tarantulas and they died--and they responded to the death by saying, "Oh, that's a waste of life, we shouldn't keep these anymore and neither should you!" Voila, no hobby. We don't know a lot about communal living among tarantulas but we know that it occurs naturally in the wild with certain species/genera. We are learning more and more through trial and error. And sometimes, deaths will occur while we're learning--and that's ok.

Holley's tank was not a failure because we learned something from it. She knows more now than she did when she started the tank and the rest of us have the benefit of learning from her first attempt. I hope that she will give it another shot since she has the environment to do so.

And RB, please, no more personal attacks. Holley does not deserve it. She's opening herself up and letting herself be vulnerable by admitting mistakes. You don't need to kick her while she's down. I'm sure she is not thrilled with losing spiders, you don't need to give her the guilt trip on top of that.

-Kelly [/B]

I never flamed or attacked her, I simply stated that if her reputation was true, had she kept the spiders individually, that the casaulty list wouldn't have been so great. No attacks at all, go back and read my posts.

Her experiment proved nothing, nothing at all. Yes she gained more experience, but at the cost of 5 spider's lives. I hope she will not do this again and that she had never done it in the first place - this will just influence others to attempt this, thus, more spiders getting needlessly killed for the sake of a "experiment."

To say that its okay for these to die is just blasphemous. Yes, ants do kill T's often in the wild, but so what? These spiders are captives in your care now, to say that "oh well, this probably would have died anyway" is just not the attitude you should have. The tarantulas are now your responsibility, not nature's. It is immoral to immitate a completely "natural" environment with all of those risks involved to the T's health.

So you lost 2 tarantulas to crickets - but thats two out of how many? If it was 2 out of three or four, I would recommend that you don't buy any more tarantulas, but I am sure you have dozens of them, so this is no longer "negligence" as much as it is "<poop -MrD> happens." I have 6 tarantulas here in my house, I know where everyone is, what everyone is doing, when they are and aren't eating because I have a smaller collection. I always know when one is molting, I can spend much more time on them because I have few.

 

[dennis]

Reigningblood:

You really don't get it do you? You're not making yourself overly popular attacking (or what other term you would use for it) people who are member on this forum for a very long time, and have proven their expertise...

 

[Lopez]

Originally posted by Reigningblood
So you lost 2 tarantulas to crickets - but thats two out of how many? If it was 2 out of three or four, I would recommend that you don't buy any more tarantulas

And I'd recommend getting a little experience. Your views are not at all realistic.

 

[Reigningblood]

Who am I attacking? You all have lost the main point a long time ago.

 

[Reigningblood]

Great, now I'm inexperienced and unpopular because I challenged "elite" posters.