communual p ornata

[neilkane]

jumped him

this morning took at look at spiders and see one of them attempt to get into anothers hidey hole you mite see in one of the pics is a little hollow branch. the spider in the hole jumped on the other pokie. i thought this was bad but the one trying to get into the branch fell and was caught in a leaf. so no injury good. i dont think this was agression to the other spider as would of result in a bite. maybe it thought was some little cricket trying to get into his home. have noticed this evening the little one that fell create a web over himself will keep posted

 

[Pennywise]

I like the Photos

They almost look like Rufilata. Wow looks like a huge amount of cork bark too!

 

[neilkane]

ornata

yes bark piece is huge and full of dark holes which they love to hide in

 

[Steve Nunn]

Hi,
I think any communal attempt to keep any species of Poecilotheria is going to eventually lead to one big fat happy spider. Regardless of what behaviour has been noted in the wild, captive behaviour is another ballpark, another planet really when you force the individuals to stay together in captivity. In the wild, several factors can be seen and observed, but the reality is we know nothing on the grand scale of things when it comes to the behaviour of our tarantulas in the wild.

There is no solid or reasonable explanation for this behaviour in the wild, other then a shortage of suitable hides, which is conjecture at best. What cannot be determined, for example, would be the belief that one "family" may reside in one tree. How do we know if they all move from tree to tree, hunting for suitable hides, in which case several spiders all from different genetic stock may inhabit one tree. The simple answer is we don't. Even if we did, it is all irrellevant once the animals are in captivity and movement is limited to one small area and the spiders are forced to cohabit.

I know a lot of folk are very interested in communal projects, but what I'm saying is, don't try or begin to attempt to replicate the wild behaviour of the animals, you simply cannot possibly acheive it.

If you are willing to try the communal thing, then please understand I'm not saying don't, I'm just saying any positive results you may have are a pure artifact of captive behaviour, as that is the situation the spiders are forced into. You may want a large tank that houses several spiders for aesthetic reasons, in that case I'd say go ahead, just expect to lose them all but one eventually. Anything else is a jackpot for yourself and verging on the balance of pure luck, for you'll find the next keeper who's tried has lost the lot, except for one

Just some food for thought

Steve

 

[neilkane]

rnata

cheers for that steve is interesting. i do believe what you say bout the norm of being left one big fat one pokie. i read and read that people had tried say 30 or more together as a group in close quarters. i thought would be better to try a few ie 3 with a larger enviroment to get them at least not to eat each other and tolerate each other without loss. as they grow i will provide them with more substancial quarters so theirs no need for them to interact. im hoping that keeping them well fed thiers no need to eat each other. im not exspecting them to be mates either.

 

[neilkane]

still ok

im watching these spiders alot and they seem ok. munching alot of food though. i watch them at night using night vision so can see them in their own time they seem most active as light falls.

 

[neilkane]

shed

got home from work today to find 2 of my ornata shed. one in main tank with the other two preparing for their shed and the other ornata that i kept seperate to this communual project had also shed. was really obvious had shed due to the enclosed webs that each spider is creating over itself. this is brilliant really because now and when each spider has shed is another period of time where risk of em eating each other is minimal their not likely even to move for ages until fully hard.

 

[angelarachnid]

Hi,

>I think any communal attempt to keep any species of Poecilotheria is going >to eventually lead to one big fat happy spider.

As keeping Pokes together is comparatively new, no one has yet found out what will happen when a group reaches maturity. I found withs/a P. formosa that an indivdual in a group of 4 spent alot of time away from the group and i guess lost the "contact" with the other ones still living together, and ensded up being eaten.

>Regardless of what behaviour has been noted in the wild, captive behaviour >is another ballpark,

So Perer Kirk find ing families of P. subfusca in the wild, and other people i know finding P. regalis and P. formosa in "family groups" in the wild woudl not reflect that in captivity these cannot be kept together?

>In the wild, several factors can be seen and observed, but the reality is we >know nothing on the grand scale of things when it comes to the behaviour >of our tarantulas in the wild.

True but if they are not siutable to be kept together and this is not "normal" for them then they would eat eachother from spiderling like many other species would do.

>There is no solid or reasonable explanation for this behaviour in the wild, >other then a shortage of suitable hides, which is conjecture at best.

Having looked for Poecilotheria in the wild i can tell you even with local people acting as guides, who know the spiders and where to find them, finding trees with holes was really hard, find ing holes with spiders was almost impossible.

>What cannot be determined, for example, would be the belief that >one "family" may reside in one tree. How do we know if they all move from >tree to tree, hunting for suitable hides, in which case several spiders all >from different genetic stock may inhabit one tree.

well i found i female P. smithi in the hole of a coconut tree and none of the 40-50 or so other coconut trees in the near vicinity had holes for the spiders to live in, so where would they go? Wander aimlessley around the plantation and reminant forest hoping to find a hole?


>The simple answer is we don't. Even if we did, it is all irrellevant once the >animals are in captivity and movement is limited to one small area and the >spiders are forced to cohabit.

Have you tried to "force" any of your Selenocosminae to cohabit? If its not in thier nature then you will end up with one big well fed specimen. If it is in thier nature to cohabit then they dont have to be "forced" they will do it naturaly.

>I know a lot of folk are very interested in communal projects, but what I'm >saying is, don't try or begin to attempt to replicate the wild behaviour of >the animals, you simply cannot possibly acheive it.

WHY?

>If you are willing to try the communal thing, then please understand I'm not >saying don't, I'm just saying any positive results you may have are a pure >artifact of captive behaviour, as that is the situation the spiders are forced >into.

Agian if its in thier nature then they do not have to be "forced", try "forcing" Psalmopoeus spiderlings to live together or A. versicolour after moult 3 or Pamphobeteus sp or numerous other species i could mention. Its not in these species nature to live together so they will eat each other.

>You may want a large tank that houses several spiders for aesthetic >reasons, in that case I'd say go ahead, just expect to lose them all but one >eventually.

I have have to agree with you here i left a female with an eggsac in a 2ftx 1.5ft x 1 ft arvboreal set up with an entire egggsac of young, i removed 1 female and around 6 very fat young.

I have kept eggsacs of 100+ spiderlings together in a 5 L cerial container, they lived ok together, my theory is that they kept the family contact so did not eat each other.

In a future BTS journal there is a further explination of why this may happen.

>Anything else is a jackpot for yourself and verging on the balance of pure >luck, for you'll find the next keeper who's tried has lost the lot, except for >one

Peter Kirk has had a colony of P. regalis for some years now, as far as i know he has never had any problems.

Just my tuppence worth

Ray

 

[neilkane]

communal attempt

i know this subject of communual tarantula keeping is a funny one because simply we do not understand the tarantulas properly yet or lifesyles they lead. only from further studys and people like you guys can we begin to understand a little more. i stated that regalis species is reported to have several generations of family living under one tree that is something i had read on forums and other sites dealing with these species. i believe it to be possible not nessacerily true or proven {should of mentioned that in the post when said about it}. how do the tarantula know the differance between in captivity and not being. dont they rely only on primitive insticts that dont change on their location. how do we know how they act differantly in captivity ? these r all things that i dont know just like you guys and girls all we can do is watch and learn with each other. i apreciate all that has been written here on my thread is all real interesting stuff. cheers

 

[Steve Nunn]

Hi Ray,
I'll try to keep this short, but you asked some very good questions!

Despite what has been noted in the wild, once the animals are in captivity all bets are off, it's the same with any group of animals. Because it's impossible to truly replicate the situation we see in the wild (none of the wild animals are limited to a small space deemed worthy by the keeper, we cannot mimmick temps and the fluctuations seen in the wild, etc), we just cannot replicate it.

Don't missread what I'm saying, I know groups of Poecilotheria are found together in the wild, but you cannot tell me you know firstly they came from the one female, secondly they've lived together happily for any amount of time (to pressume anything else would be conjecture) and thirdly and most important, why this happens. You may have noted or observed a situation in the wild, but this can only help you to eliminate issues, not to hit the nail on the head with a 100% solid explanation as to why it occurs. And without knowing why, how can you possibly know whether or not the spiders will be happy when forced to be together (that is what you are doing when you contain the animals together in such a small space!). You see, unlike what is seen in the wild you have removed the options available to the animals in those circumstances. That is what I mean by "forced"

If you did know the reasons why this occurs, then of all those who have tried colonies in one enclosure, would not have lost as many of the spiders. But, the opposite is true, of most attempts at this, they have failed terribly. What I'm saying is there's a reason for this and we don't know why!

I cannot emphasize enough that wild behaviour cannot be compared to captive behaviour, apples and oranges Ray. Any success with communal keeping of any speciesis an artifact of captivity and no more then that, despite what observations have been noted in the wild.

Sure, some colonies may work out (as you cited Peter's group of P.regalis) but make no mistake, when you put several spiders together in captivity, how do you know you've also removed the mechanism by which the animals will not feed on each other in the wild? You can't, that's my point.

I'm not saying these observations in the wild are not something for us to work with in captivity, I'm glad several of you folk give it a go. But don't think for one minute you're replicating any sort of wild behaviour, because you aren't, given the immense variation between what is known in the wild and what is not possible to create in captivity this task is impossible.

Regardless it does make for some interesting observations and if you guys can find the key to communal keeping of Poecilotheria in captivity, then there will be some good information for keepers!

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Nate]

Does anyone think the tarantulas themselves benefit from being housed together?

I think the only one that benefits is the keeper, pure ascetics. I see tolerance and communal behaviors as two separate things. I *think* Mr. Nunn’s point is we can’t mimic wild life activity in captivity until it’s FULLY understood in the wild. Right?

A pack of wild dogs is a good example. Years of research shows a hierarchy / family structure. Once the behavior is understood it can be stimulated in captivity.

I consider myself a mediocre keeper and find this very interesting. Commandments to those that attempt this. Look forward to reading about your successes and/or failures.

 

[xgrafcorex]

also, i'd say you'd be pretty daft to not also assume cannibalism occurs in the wild as well. sure they might be living in groups, but its gotta happen there as well when they have confrontations over mates/food etc. i love the idea of having a few in one tank, but i think the only way i'd ever try it is if i had a lot of slings from an egg sac.

 

[Steve Nunn]

I *think* Mr. Nunn’s point is we can’t mimic wild life activity in captivity until it’s FULLY understood in the wild. Right?

Hi Nate,
Close, we can't replicate wild behaviour or lifestyle in captivity, full stop. Despite what we learn, we cannot know everything and cover it all. What we can do however is try to mimmick wild behviour/lifestyle as best we can. I really think the best options are to always follow what we see in the wild, as best we can, it's got to be a winning formula so far, we know the spiders in captivity are happy enough to breed for us, so as hobbyists we're doing some things right

I can give you some interesting examples related precisely to this topic. I've seen 3 different species on a creekbank, within 30cm of each other. One of the 3 was a different genus. 2x Phlogius spp. and 1x Selenotypus sp. There were no barriers between the holes, which were well established and the spiders had been living there some time, all were adults. I could never hope to replicate that scenario in captivity. I would end up with one fat happy spider within 2 nights, I have no doubts at all. These are old world fossorial species I'm talking about, they would never tolerate each other in captivity, yet they can in the wild. Why?? We don't know why. Even if I knew why it happened, the chances of me ever achieving a similar setup in captivity as to what I've seen in the wild are impossible.

Anyone who's dealt with several species in the wild can tell you they will be found surprisingly close to one another, in some cases almost on top of each other, yet the smae goals with the same species cannot be achieved in captivity. The Poecilotheria may indeed be more tolerant to one another then most species, I'm not arguing this at all, I'm simply saying captive behaviour can never replicate precisely wild conditions, it just cannot be done. If someone can work the key out as to how to consistently allow for communal setups without losses for Poecilotheria "in captivity", then great. Fact is, it hasn't happened yet. Even as Ray mentioned Peter Kirk's success with P.regalis, has Peter said why he thinks it's worked?? Does he know?? And if he does, then this info is golden and should be brought out asap to stop other losses of communal setups that are occurring.

And then I would wonder if Pete has tried other Poecilotheria spp. and if unsuccessful, why as compared to the P.regalis??? Why has his regalis setup worked when others have failed??

Cheers,
Steve

 

[angelarachnid]

EXCELENT this is getting into a heavy healthy debate.

ok firstly i am very tired so will answer a couple of points just now and answer more fully (where i can.......read dont want to say to much untill aticles are published in the BTS and the new Pokies book...no i dont know when it is due out but i am workingas hard as i can LOL)

I consider my self very lucky in some respects to be in the UK, mainly because we have distinct seasons, if we house our spiders correctly (not just pokes) we can replicate the wild climatic conditions using heated cabinets, with the heat source on thermostats giving cold and warm seasons and wet and dry seasons. most of the commonly bred species dont really need this P. cambridgei for example. but many of the harder to breed species S. hoffmanni require a climatic "trigger" in order for them to produce eggsacs.

Steve, 3 species in one area i feel is going a bit of topic as the thread is keeping Poke ornata communually (very nice observation though, so far i have only seen single species in colonys in the wild).

Yes you are right in a way we cannot judge what we see in captivity and say this is what would happen in the wild, but when we realise that spiders are basicly a group which works on instinct rather than thought (as someone correctly stated they dont know if they are incaptivity or inthe wild) then we can surmise that what we see in captivity could be close to what would happen in the wild, and this can be shown by breeder strying to keep groups of spiderlings together, some will live tiogether, Pokes and H. incei for example others wil not and will cannibalise.

with the exception of P. ornata and (in my case) P. striata, i have noticed very little cannibalism in Pokes, i have seen it though but what i dont know is that this cannibalism is on live specimens or DEAD specimens, if a nest mate dies then why not eat it?

YES spiders housed together DO benefit, i have not had the time to research into this but for someone breeding regalis this could be a nice (and very worthwhile ) project for you. I hae found that Pokes living together grow faster, my guess is that they use less silk than they would for individual webs so more nutrition is put into growth, then again this could be where the surplus food comes in for feeding grouped specimens. (this is also where some research could be done, hatch an eggsac of regalis keep 50% individually and feed them the same and keep the other 50% in groups and feed them the same......i would be really interested in teh outcome of these experiments).

When Pokes are kept together they grow at different rates (another experiment for someone), are they doing this because they want to ensure there will always be a male and emale ready to reproduce the genes of the "family/colony"???

Even when given surplus food in a group setting some specimens seem to not feed and slow thier growth rate down?????the surplus food would rarely happen in the wild, so why are they still found in family groups??

if adaptation to caprivity wouldnt they then all go for as much food and all try to grow as fast as they can?

going to bed will tryto write more tommorow

Ray

 

[neilkane]

ray thankyou for your comments are very very interesting i personnaly would love to perform an exsperiment on splitting an eggsac and keeping some seperate and form a community project with the other half would be well interesting.

another question to you guys.

do you think the 3 ornata know of each others presence within their enviroment. could they decide to stay away from certain holes which belong to another ornata. i know this fall outside of their main insticts of run or eat. spiders hesitate some times when capturing pray is this in with the run instict ?

 

[neilkane]

alls ok

still all ok 2 of them seem to spend alot of time near each other 3rd still hasnt come out of his hollow branch. gonna stay up l8 tonight to watch them in total darkness for a couple of hours.

 

[solaceofwinter]

keep us posted, seems interesting.

 

[neilkane]

night

like i said was gonna stay up late to watch the little ones to see what they get up to at night. well not really much happened all night the two i said spend time near to each other did just that again. moved to about 1 mm apart all night. would love to see the third with them as well think will have to purposly fatten him up so he cant fit in his home anymore in the hollow branch lol. i dont think the two are bothered by each other yet but dont foresee problems till their a little older anyway....

need to find a sure way to clean deep down inside the tank without interupting the spidies. has been mentioned to me that a long stick with cloth wrapped around the top would be a good thing.
will post new pics once tank glass been cleaned a little will put pics here

http://www.camberwellcarrot.net/T-Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=28

 

[pwilfort]

Beautiful tarantula Greg! Thanks for sharing,

 

[neilkane]

sweet

everything still ok within tank . their still spending time close to each other mite possible lower tank temp for short while see if they cuddle up or something. not sure bout this though really was just a thought seems a little drastic just to get them together. anyone got any ideas on this.