Depressed tarantulas in captivity

[elliotulysses]

Not that I'm saying they feel happy, sad, in love etc. But just maybe a wider incomprehensible range of something so different from what we call emotions.

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 11:02 PM ----------

And do you?

I personally enjoy that.
I almost feel sad when my roaches are waning...

 

[Poec54]

Not that I'm saying they feel happy, sad, in love etc. But just maybe a wider incomprehensible range of something so different from what we call emotions.

Thank you. When their basic urges are satisfied: a starving spider finally getting a meal, or a dehydrated spider crawling to water, they have to feel something. Maybe not joy in the way we express it, but there has to be a sense of satisfaction and relief.

Are tarantulas 'depressed' in captivity, no. But can they feel frustration that they can't get out after repeated attempts, or that food and water don't occur on the same schedules they do in it's native habitat? Maybe.

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 11:05 PM ----------

They lack a limbic system, which pretty much nullifies any emotions for them. Outside of that, you're delving into purely philosophical ideas with regards to emotions vs instinct/urges.

You're thinking in human terms and applying that to spiders.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

No, you're thinking causation in human terms and applying it to an animal that lacks the capacity or functions for emotions. I really suggest everyone interested read up on spider biology - fascinating subject. They don't *need* us to try and make them into something they aren't.

 

[Poec54]

No, you're thinking causation in human terms and applying it to an animal that lacks the capacity or functions for emotions.

They have the same basic needs humans do: food, water, shelter. They're not stressed when they don't have those? The stress isn't reduced when those needs are met? There's no emotion when they're fighting for their life with a predator? And no sense of relief when they survive the encounter? It may be primitive, but there's emotions involved. They're not robots. They're alert, they make decisions. They outwit us often enough.

 

[telepatella]

Nobody supporting the idea that T's have emotions has ever made compelling statement, point or argument. Proving a point by saying something must be or could be or has to be is less than anecdotal - it borders on magical thinking. Comparing spiders to people would be an analogy that I would use to distinguish two absolutely disparate things like say, spiders and people - doh... The whole argument itself is a tired, tired narrative. I see it as an appealing and seductive meme but it falls into the super soft science category, speculative arm-chairery, musing. I have spoken thus, let this be the last time we visit this!

 

[Poec54]

Nobody supporting the argument that T's have emotions has ever made compelling statement. Proving a point by saying something must be or could be or has to be so is less than anecdotal - it borders on magical thinking. The whole argument itself is a tired, tired narrative.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've yet to see anything compelling here for the other side, other than 'it's not possible' and that seems to be good enough for you.

 

[telepatella]

I'm saying there has been no argument to contradict the non - conclusively, categorically etc. The burden of proof is on ya'll. I could not positively hold to the claims being tossed around.

 

[freddierossero]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a bit ridiculous to assert that spiders experience complex emotions in the way that humans do. Of course they don't. But as Poec said, they're not robots, and they do have positive and negative responses to stimuli that probably go beyond base "instinct", however we're defining that. And as has also been said, figuring out what they do feel is almost necessarily speculation. We can study their biology and with better technology and deeper scientific understanding we might be able to get closer to understanding what they experience. But we'll never be able to fully understand the way a spider experiences the world; we can't even do that with the person sitting next to us.

As far as spider keeping goes, I think we just have to do the best we can to reduce what's obviously negative, try to keep our spiders in good health, and observe and learn from their behavior to continually make improvements when it's possible. Obviously that's what's been done by those people who have been keeping spiders for decades--or any animal for that matter. It will be interesting to see what changes are made in the hobby in the future, though.

tl,dr; Spiders don't experience what we experience in the way we experience it. That doesn't mean we can't have compassion for them.

 

[DVMT]

How much of that problem solving equates to emotion as well? Does intelligence = emotions?

I don't think so. I know humans who are intelligent and seem to have no emotions. Two different parts of the brain as well.....at least in humans. The same can't be said about tarantulas.

 

[elliotulysses]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a bit ridiculous to assert that spiders experience complex emotions in the way that humans do. Of course they don't. But as Poec said, they're not robots, and they do have positive and negative responses to stimuli that probably go beyond base "instinct", however we're defining that. And as has also been said, figuring out what they do feel is almost necessarily speculation. We can study their biology and with better technology and deeper scientific understanding we might be able to get closer to understanding what they experience. But we'll never be able to fully understand the way a spider experiences the world; we can't even do that with the person sitting next to us.

As far as spider keeping goes, I think we just have to do the best we can to reduce what's obviously negative, try to keep our spiders in good health, and observe and learn from their behavior to continually make improvements when it's possible. Obviously that's what's been done by those people who have been keeping spiders for decades--or any animal for that matter. It will be interesting to see what changes are made in the hobby in the future, though.

tl,dr; Spiders don't experience what we experience in the way we experience it. That doesn't mean we can't have compassion for them.

This is exactly what I meant the whole time. I don't even know if "emotions" is a correct word, moreso an approximation. I really enjoy biology and would just like to see more research

 

[Poec54]

I could not positively hold to the claims being tossed around.

No one's asking you to. I don't know that the 'burden of proof' is necessarily on us, anymore that it is on you. The invertebrate body is very different than ours, and does things in different ways. We certainly don't understand all of that. By invertebrate standards, tarantulas have proportionately large brains. Something's going on in there.

It's a regular occurrence these days for scientists to discover life in conditions that have long-been assumed to be absolutely impossible. Places like thermal heat vents in the ocean, that scientists have assured us were far too hot and toxic for anything to survive there. And yet life thrives there. If you want to have a knee-jerk reaction to lower animals being incapable of anything us mighty humans experience, go right ahead.

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 07:05 AM ----------

This is exactly what I meant the whole time. I don't even know if "emotions" is a correct word, moreso an approximation.

Maybe 'emotions' is the right word after all, but our connotations tend to be from a more complex human perspective, and we look at other life forms in a biased manner. No, they're not feeling things exactly like we do. But there's a whole world of life forms that aren't required to act and feel the same as we do. 'If it's not like us, it doesn't count.' Emotions is a very broad thing, and not exclusive to the humans experience, nor necessarily even mammals or even vertebrates. There's a lot of people that have to feel they are far superior to any animal, which is strange considering we have 98% of the same DNA chimps do.

 

[elliotulysses]

No one's asking you to. I don't know that the 'burden of proof' is necessarily on us, anymore that it is on you. The invertebrate body is very different than ours, and does things in different ways. We certainly don't understand all of that. By invertebrate standards, tarantulas have proportionately large brains. Something's going on there.

It's a regular occurrence these days for scientists to discover life in conditions that have long-been assumed to be absolutely impossible. Places like thermal heat vents in the ocean, that scientists have assured us were far too hot and toxic for anything to survive there. And yet life thrives there. So if you want to have a knee-jerk reaction to lower animals being incapable of anything us mighty humans experience, go right ahead.

The shape of the brain is interesting too. I am sure they have neurons, glia, neurotransmitters, and the whole set up but what is the function? How does it impose on the being's physiology?
Like I said, there are no arachnid neuroscientists to my knowledge, but all we can do is speculate. SOMETHING is there and it reacts with SOMETHING ELSE to result in a behavior. All we can do is speculate. It really is like envisioning a circle-triangle in regards to our current scientific standings.
This is just from my psychology experience, however this basic model goes for all life forms.

 

[HungryGhost]

And do you? And what about the cows that are slaughtered in order to feed you? Remorse?

First of all, you make some pretty grand assumptions that cows are being slaughtered for me. I'm a vegetarian. Secondly, you may want to check with your doctor because I'm pretty sure your sense of humor has atrophied due to lack of use. Humor?

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 07:07 AM ----------

I dont feel remorse after eating a steak...your point?

You should.

 

[Poec54]

First of all, you make some pretty grand assumptions that cows are being slaughtered for me. I'm a vegetarian.

I'm a vegetarian too. I'm also one of the forum comedians, so a lot of people are getting my humor, even if it's beyond you.

 

[elliotulysses]

No one's asking you to. I don't know that the 'burden of proof' is necessarily on us, anymore that it is on you. The invertebrate body is very different than ours, and does things in different ways. We certainly don't understand all of that. By invertebrate standards, tarantulas have proportionately large brains. Something's going on in there.

It's a regular occurrence these days for scientists to discover life in conditions that have long-been assumed to be absolutely impossible. Places like thermal heat vents in the ocean, that scientists have assured us were far too hot and toxic for anything to survive there. And yet life thrives there. If you want to have a knee-jerk reaction to lower animals being incapable of anything us mighty humans experience, go right ahead.

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 07:05 AM ----------



Maybe 'emotions' is the right word after all, but our connotations tend to be from a more complex human perspective, and we look at other life forms in a biased manner. No, they're not feeling things exactly like we do. But there's a whole world of life forms that aren't required to act and feel the same as we do. 'If it's not like us, it doesn't count.' Emotions is a very broad thing, and not exclusive to the humans experience, nor necessarily even mammals or even vertebrates. There's a lot of people that have to feel they are far superior to any animal, which is strange considering we have 98% of the same DNA chimps do.

Hell, there's scientific evidence plants have "feeling" and experience telepathy. There is so much unknown, it's wonderful. It's only discouraging when debate turns to insult war, or something of a more angryimpulsive nature

 

[DVMT]

First of all, you make some pretty grand assumptions that cows are being slaughtered for me. I'm a vegetarian. Secondly, you may want to check with your doctor because I'm pretty sure your sense of humor has atrophied due to lack of use. Humor?

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 07:07 AM ----------


You should.

I'm not going to get into this debate with you here. Wrong place for that topic.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

They have the same basic needs humans do: food, water, shelter. They're not stressed when they don't have those? The stress isn't reduced when those needs are met? There's no emotion when they're fighting for their life with a predator? And no sense of relief when they survive the encounter? It may be primitive, but there's emotions involved. They're not robots. They're alert, they make decisions. They outwit us often enough.

You're confusing "instinct" with "emotion". You're trying to apply human functions, with their genesis in neurological structures that arachnids don't have, to instinctual functions. By your reckoning, anything that fulfills an instinct has "emotion" - so cells, tissues, organs, plants and anything else would have "emotion". By generalizing to that extent, "emotion" takes on a meaning that reduces it to a meaningless word.

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 08:29 AM ----------

Thanks for clearing that up. I've yet to see anything compelling here for the other side, other than 'it's not possible' and that seems to be good enough for you.

Except that, physiologically speaking, emotions are centered in a neurological system that arachnids don't have. That's a very large piece of evidence you are choosing to ignore to make a case. That pretty much ends to case for spiders having emotions.

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 08:42 AM ----------

Maybe 'emotions' is the right word after all, but our connotations tend to be from a more complex human perspective, and we look at other life forms in a biased manner. No, they're not feeling things exactly like we do. But there's a whole world of life forms that aren't required to act and feel the same as we do. 'If it's not like us, it doesn't count.' Emotions is a very broad thing, and not exclusive to the humans experience, nor necessarily even mammals or even vertebrates. There's a lot of people that have to feel they are far superior to any animal, which is strange considering we have 98% of the same DNA chimps do.

We share a large portion of DNA with all life. The point is...?

Some people need that feeling of superiority, true. And some people understand that animals *don't* need to have emotions in the human sense to be fascinating creatures in their own right. Unless compelling evidence is given in the future that shows arachnids *do* have the physiological structures that give rise to emotions, I see no need to assume my spiders experience happiness or sadness or anger. As of now, scientifically speaking, all their actions are based out of instinct and not emotional drives. That OBT flipping on its back to defend itself isn't doing so out of anger but perceived self preservation - an instinct. Why do people need to project a human emotion onto the animal?

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 08:54 AM ----------

Hell, there's scientific evidence plants have "feeling" and experience telepathy. There is so much unknown, it's wonderful. It's only discouraging when debate turns to insult war, or something of a more angryimpulsive nature

I suggest reading up on the actual studies and *not* headlines - science hasn't shown evidence of plant "telepathy" anymore than it has of human telepathy.

 

[MadMauC]

Great thread- luv this!!!
My comments - what then makes a happy tarantula ?
Instinct vs emotion - is this also hormonal triggered by pheromones that T use to "feel" so they tast their emotions -
T maternal care - am sure the slings emit a chemical pheromones that induces the mother to "do her duty" like a chemical code she deciphers? A little like how Cordyceps are able to induce their insect host to climb a high spot in order they are able to disperse their spores.

 

[elliotulysses]

You're confusing "instinct" with "emotion". You're trying to apply human functions, with their genesis in neurological structures that arachnids don't have, to instinctual functions. By your reckoning, anything that fulfills an instinct has "emotion" - so cells, tissues, organs, plants and anything else would have "emotion". By generalizing to that extent, "emotion" takes on a meaning that reduces it to a meaningless word.

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 08:29 AM ----------



Except that, physiologically speaking, emotions are centered in a neurological system that arachnids don't have. That's a very large piece of evidence you are choosing to ignore to make a case. That pretty much ends to case for spiders having emotions.

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 08:42 AM ----------



We share a large portion of DNA with all life. The point is...?

Some people need that feeling of superiority, true. And some people understand that animals *don't* need to have emotions in the human sense to be fascinating creatures in their own right. Unless compelling evidence is given in the future that shows arachnids *do* have the physiological structures that give rise to emotions, I see no need to assume my spiders experience happiness or sadness or anger. As of now, scientifically speaking, all their actions are based out of instinct and not emotional drives. That OBT flipping on its back to defend itself isn't doing so out of anger but perceived self preservation - an instinct. Why do people need to project a human emotion onto the animal?

---------- Post added 10-07-2014 at 08:54 AM ----------



I suggest reading up on the actual studies and *not* headlines - science hasn't shown evidence of plant "telepathy" anymore than it has of human telepathy.

Again, telepathy is an approximation. It's more of a study on plant reactions.
I am heavily rooted in the scientific field, especially research. I have better critical thinking skills to not refer back to academia
I just feel *no one* knows what's going on, but I'd like to see some studies. It's just we *are* ego centric and not many would be interested in funding that kind of research.

 

[Poec54]

You're confusing "instinct" with "emotion". You're trying to apply human functions, with their genesis in neurological structures that arachnids don't have, to instinctual functions.

A large part of our emotions are from basic, instinctive needs hard-wired into us from our ancestors eons ago. We're happy when we have ample food, water, shelter, and companions. We're stressed and upset when we don't. You're saying that humans being's response to the same instinct-driven needs is somehow far superior to other animals instinct-driven needs for food, water, shelter? We're starving, we eat and we're content; invertebrates can't feel satisfaction from fulfilling the same need?

What's different between humans and other animals is this the level of complexity. We can feel emotions from reading, watching movies, listening to music, etc. There's much more stimulae to trigger emotional responses in us. But the source of many of our emotions are extremely primitive instincts. To make the assumption that animals, even invertebrates, can't feel any of this is the human ego at work again. We're just one of the animals on this planet.