Effects of Venom on the Heart

[Cory Loomis]

The December 15, 2005 edition of USA Today had an article (p.7D) on Elizabeth Mule', Dr. Sachs, and components of venom from G. rosea as a potential treatment for tachycardia. (Elizabeth has had multiple threads on this board.) There are, then, venoms that do affect the heart. However, their effect on you individually would depend on your particular cardiac problem. The adrenaline rush from the pain of a bite from P. murinus or S. calceatum would seem to be equally problematic, if not more so.

As you well know already, no tarantula is sitting in his kritter keeper plotting to bite the next person who gives him the chance. I'd keep whatever I wanted and treat them all with the respect that wild, virtually brainless, venomous predators deserve.

 

[Crotalus]

What that component in the rosea venom do is not creating a heart problem, but to stabilize it. Quite different. Besides, its not the venom that do this - its one isolated component from a venom. Very different then to state the rosea venom do effect the heart.

/Lelle

 

[Venom]

"if there were deaths caused by theraphosids in these areas they would be known to the rest of the world and offcourse guides etc would be informed. But there isnt any"

I find that statement rather unreasonable. Would a family in the jungles of Papua New Guinea, or Malaysia travel to a hospital just to report that their infant had died from a T bite? I don't think so. Native peoples living in primitive conditions aren't going to be concerned with the world's medical records, so unless someone travels into the middle-of-nowhere jungles in every jungle on earth with "hot" T's, how are we going to know if somewhere, at some time, some child or infant hasn't died from a Selenocosmia, or Stromatopelma or Poec bite? How would anyone hear?

People die in the jungles without there being medical records. All you can say is: "But we haven't heard of any"--not there isn't any, because we don't know! Malnourished, diseased children in 3rd world countries are weaker, and therefore more susceptible to venom in general than persons living in the USA & Europe etc. where we are discussing --and sometimes experiencing-- these envenomations. Sure, there are some medical records kept in 3rd world countries, but certainly not all cases are reported. They can't possibly all be reported. It is extremely impractical and pointless for someone in Togo or Indonesia or even India to travel miles through the jungle just to say "yes someone did die". What would they have to gain by doing so? If the child/ infant is already dead, why would they bother? So even in not having heard of any deaths, we still aren't assured that they haven't happened.


"What that component in the rosea venom do is not creating a heart problem, but to stabilize it. Quite different. Besides, its not the venom that do this - its one isolated component from a venom. Very different then to state the rosea venom do effect the heart."


I realize the compound in rosea venom is helpful not hurtful, but it still has an effect on the heart. Otherwise they wouldn't use it! Stromato bites have been reported to affect the heart directly andadversely, not to mention the chemicals which the body may release in response to the envenomation and pain, as Cory said, which may also affect the heart. Adrenaline increases the heart rate, so that even if the venom didn't affect the heart directly, it could indirectly affect it by causing such pain that the body released large amounts of adrenaline, which could put a dangerous strain on the heart of someone like Becca who has pre-existing condition which weakens her heart.

 

[Crotalus]

Venom, if they indeed where dangeours and killed native people - im sure hobbyists would die aswell. I dont think the venom would be less strong in a terrarium but so far no deaths and there are plenty of bites. The Stromatopelma bite article was not written by a doctor as far as I know, and incresed heartrythm might just be a adrenaline symptom. I would take that article with a pinch of salt.

/Lelle

 

[CedrikG]

yeah true ... plus, bite report can be ?exagerated? if the guy who got bited want to show it worst then it was

 

[Venom]

Granted, the venom probably isn't much, if at all, different from specimens in the wild, but the bites in captivity are generally in adult keepers. Stromatopelma, Poecilotheria aren't generally kept by children or beginners, whereas there are certainly children, possibly very young children being bitten in the native countries where the spiders and children are both running around outdoors. Also, the keepers who are being bitten are probably in better health than even adults in the native countries, due to better nutrition, medical attention etc, not to mention the fact that when a keeper does have a semi serious envenomation, he/she can just go straight to the hospital and get whatever anti-inflammatory/ painkilling drugs they need, which would not be readily available to everyone in the native areas. So all in all, I don't think we can call ourselves perfect examples of what would happen to persons bitten in the jungles of the native countries, especially since we're not young, weak children.

Although adrenaline was probably involved, I do not think it was the primary cause for the adverse effects on the heart. To quote the article:

"His throat was swollen and the pain radiated to his face, optical nerves, chest with heart contractions starting less than two hours after the bite....The heart contractions ceased after another hour and forty minutes"

and

"it does cause systemic distress that follows a particular pattern and always involves problems with the heart."

And no, I don't know who wrote the original article, but to me at least it seems like it may have been written by and army field doctor. It is a very detailed report.


And even healthy, young adult- adult hobbyists have had rather serious bites:


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=21229

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=11996

http://www.thetarantulastoreforum.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=248&hl=

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=939

http://www.bighairyspiders.com/poec.html

http://www.bighairyspiders.com/bites.shtml#cpaganus

 

[Crotalus]

Interesting reading but are they close to death? No. However, Im no doctor but that is my understanding of those bite reports. Chest cramp, pain, cramp in limbs and face is offcourse not pleasant but to say these effects can kill you... no I doubt that.

You underestimate these countries if you think those spiders killing people there and no one would ever know.

/Lelle

 

[Venom]

I didn't say they were close to death, I said they were "rather serious bites". My point was that even in healthy, adult hobbyists, there are serious symptoms ( chest problems, etc. ) which, in a weak child in a native country could be even more serious. And as for underestimating the countries...well, I know India has a decent medical system, ( although even they have remote regions ) but Indonesia, Africa...? I watch documentary TV, and these places are remote. And by "natives," I mean not only persons who simply live in these countries, but also real "natives" --as in half-naked tribal people in the middle of nowhere, who probably don't even know what a hospital is. Lets say some 1 - 2 yr old native, ( who has no access to modern medicine, and is probably somewhat undernourished ) gets bitten on the neck by Stromatopelma or Selenocosmia...do you really think it's completely impossible for the child to die from the bite?

And what about the people in our own countries who have muscular dystrophy, cystic fibrosis, pulmonary heart disease, emphysema, COPD, congestive heart failure ( who, combined, form a pretty large part of the population )---what if they got bitten by these species? Really, I think we should take these envenomations seriously, especially in light of persons with already compromised health.

 

[Crotalus]

There are very few tribes on this earth with no contact with the rest of the world. Very few. Just the fact they are halfnaked dont make them one of these tribes.

Ok. I see your point. But 1-2 year old infants dont climb trees so lets stick to a scenario that feels a little more down to earth
People that are sick are offcourse in a risk for everything - but that dont really make a good measurement on how potent a venom are. Besides, a person that are severely sick dont usually keep pets.

/Lelle

 

[becca81]

The December 15, 2005 edition of USA Today had an article (p.7D) on Elizabeth Mule', Dr. Sachs, and components of venom from G. rosea as a potential treatment for tachycardia. (Elizabeth has had multiple threads on this board.) There are, then, venoms that do affect the heart.

Interesting - I knew there was research going on, but I haven't paid attention to the exact condition being treated. I've got to go for more tests next week, but Tachycardia has been mentioned several times to me.

 

[Venom]

"People that are sick are offcourse in a risk for everything - but that dont really make a good measurement on how potent a venom are."

--It might not make them a good benchmark for manifesting venom potency, but I think it does show that in some cases, certain T's can cause death.

"There are very few tribes on this earth with no contact with the rest of the world. Very few. Just the fact they are halfnaked dont make them one of these tribes."

---Perhaps there aren't many that have no contact, but there are a good few that have little contact--or at least aren't going to travel to a hospital to seek medical help. Papua New Guinea, for example, has over 800 languages, because there are so many different tribes of natives who live in the jungles there.

"Ok. I see your point. But 1-2 year old infants dont climb trees so lets stick to a scenario that feels a little more down to earth"

---Granted, 1-2 year olds don't climb trees to get at Poecilotheria and Stromatopelma, but Selenocosmia ( native to Papua New Guinea, I believe ) are ground-dwelling, and little kids are curious...There may not be the greatest availability/ opportunity for these children to be envenomated by most of the more serious T's, but if, in the uncommon instance it did happen, I don't think we can completely rule out death.

"Besides, a person that are severely sick dont usually keep pets."

--The majority of people on earth have at least something wrong with them physically, so we have to take that into account when we're talking about how potent an envenomation is on average. Seriously ill persons( or persons with serious conditions ) make up a large percentage of the general population. The original purpose of this thread was from someone who has a weakened heart, inquiring about the risk of keeping the more venomous tarantulas.

What I'm saying is that we can't completely rule out the possibility of death from a T bite in every and all cases. There are so many people that are weakened/ ill or don't have access to adequate medical care that the average person on earth IS somewhat susceptible to envenomations, and, given the rather concerning symptoms we have experienced among ourselves, I think with certain persons in certain countries, that death from a tarantula bite is possible.

 

[Crotalus]

--It might not make them a good benchmark for manifesting venom potency, but I think it does show that in some cases, certain T's can cause death.

But, you gotta have more substancial proof then just a personal opinion. So far no deaths documented. Anywhere.
Again, the exploding yucca example - maybe some think that story is true - but just because they think so it doesnt make it true.

---Perhaps there aren't many that have no contact, but there are a good few that have little contact--or at least aren't going to travel to a hospital to seek medical help. Papua New Guinea, for example, has over 800 languages, because there are so many different tribes of natives who live in the jungles there.

Ok. Now they have little contact. And little means... that they wouldnt inform the outsiders if they indeed got bitten and died from these spiders? PNG is a fairly small island compared to the Amazon region, where mostr of the tribes live that have no contact with the outside world as far as I know. And I doubt they die from Avicularia there.

---Granted, 1-2 year olds don't climb trees to get at Poecilotheria and Stromatopelma, but Selenocosmia ( native to Papua New Guinea, I believe ) are ground-dwelling, and little kids are curious...There may not be the greatest availability/ opportunity for these children to be envenomated by most of the more serious T's, but if, in the uncommon instance it did happen, I don't think we can completely rule out death.

They DO have taipans, death adders, and even a Hadronyche species on PNG. I doubt they are even remotely concerned about theraphosid bites there. And I do know there are western toxinologists working on PNG with producing a freeze dry snake serum, so no contact theory is not true at all.

--The majority of people on earth have at least something wrong with them physically, so we have to take that into account when we're talking about how potent an envenomation is on average. Seriously ill persons( or persons with serious conditions ) make up a large percentage of the general population. The original purpose of this thread was from someone who has a weakened heart, inquiring about the risk of keeping the more venomous tarantulas.

"Weakened heart" can mean alot of things. If you got a seroius heart trouble, I doubnt very much that you are into spiders. Or if you dont know about your condition - like lots of soccer teens here that suddenly died on practise - you might die going up a staircase.

What I'm saying is that we can't completely rule out the possibility of death from a T bite in every and all cases. There are so many people that are weakened/ ill or don't have access to adequate medical care that the average person on earth IS somewhat susceptible to envenomations, and, given the rather concerning symptoms we have experienced among ourselves, I think with certain persons in certain countries, that death from a tarantula bite is possible.

No, but you gotta see the evidence and documentations (or lack of them more like it) and try to overlook your own personal ideas. Fact is fact. A personal opinion is something else. So, to state that "they can kill you" is plain wrong.

/Lelle

 

[Venom]

"But, you gotta have more substancial proof then just a personal opinion. So far no deaths documented. Anywhere.
Again, the exploding yucca example - maybe some think that story is true - but just because they think so it doesnt make it true."

I was making an inferrence from the evidence:

1. Certain T's have caused strong effects on humans

2. The victims in these cases were apparantly otherwise healthy, and yet sustained rather serious symptoms

3. Certain persons are severely weakened/ diseased in the body systems that have been affected strongly even in the healthy people

Thus: Certain persons with seriously weakened systems could possibly die from envenomations from the more venomous T's.

--That was my reasoning

And again, not all deaths everywhere are documented. Just because there are no documented recoreds, doesn't mean they haven't happened. In fact, in places that keep records, a person is LESS likely to die from any envenomation...snake, spider/ whatever, because the countries and regions that keep records have 1) healthier people through better economies and thus better nutrition 2) medical facilities / personnel to treat envenomation victims AND other diseases/ conditions which make people more susceptible to envenomations. It is the countries with regions for which there ARE no records that are most likely to have deaths.


"Ok. Now they have little contact. And little means... that they wouldnt inform the outsiders if they indeed got bitten and died from these spiders?"

Yes, I think so. Why would they bother to inform us? Unless someone traveled around and asked them, I really doubt they'd bother to travel all the way to the outside world just to tell us. AND, a person investigating this would have to ask every family of natives in order to have a definitive answer yea or nay.


"PNG is a fairly small island compared to the Amazon region, where mostr of the tribes live that have no contact with the outside world as far as I know. And I doubt they die from Avicularia there."

How is that relevant? You don't need a forest the size of the Amazon in order for it to have remote regions. And no, they don't have any of the hotter T's in the Amazon. What is your point with this?


"They DO have taipans, death adders, and even a Hadronyche species on PNG. I doubt they are even remotely concerned about theraphosid bites there."

Why wouldn't they be concerned about T bites, especially if they do cause the occasional death? At the very least, I bet they know the amount of pain they can cause.

"And I do know there are western toxinologists working on PNG with producing a freeze dry snake serum, so no contact theory is not true at all."

All right, toxinologists are in PNG, but are they asking the people about their T envenomations? Are they treating T envenomations? If not, then their contact with these people has little or no bearing at all on our discussion.


"'Weakened heart' can mean alot of things. If you got a seroius heart trouble, I doubnt very much that you are into spiders."

What about Becca? She's into spiders. I have had very high blood pressure ( 165/93 ), and persistent cardiac palpitations...what about me? I'm into spiders. What about the people--like the soccer players you mentioned--who don't KNOW they have heart condition?

"Or if you dont know about your condition - like lots of soccer teens here that suddenly died on practise - you might die going up a staircase."

--That only supports my case. If they didn't know they had a heart condition, they would not have that reason to keep them from buying hotter T's--thereby putting themselves at a higher risk. It only shows how people can be more susceptible to T bites.


"No, but you gotta see the evidence and documentations (or lack of them more like it) and try to overlook your own personal ideas."

The evidence and documentations support my view. As I said before:


I was making an inferrence from the evidence:

1. Certain T's have caused strong effects on humans

2. The victims in these cases were apparantly otherwise healthy, and yet sustained rather serious symptoms

3. Certain persons are severely weakened/ diseased in the body systems that have been affected strongly even in the healthy people

Thus: Certain persons with seriously weakened systems could possibly die from envenomations from the more venomous T's.

Yes, these are my "personal ideas"--but I didn't just pull them out of thin air. They are supported by the observed facts.

"Fact is fact. A personal opinion is something else. So, to state that "they can kill you" is plain wrong."

Again, it depends on who the "you" in "they can kill you" is. I have--and have shown--ample reason to believe that certain persons could die.

/Lelle

 

[Deschain]

In Russia a man was bitten by a mature T.blondi a he died, his heart was ill !

Can`t say...don`t remember ! But you must understan how many people live in jungels where is no help for tarantula or snake bites and I personally think that in places like this have been deaths but no one knows about them !

Just curious...but where are the jungles in Russia located? :?

 

[Crotalus]

I was making an inferrence from the evidence:

1. Certain T's have caused strong effects on humans

2. The victims in these cases were apparantly otherwise healthy, and yet sustained rather serious symptoms

3. Certain persons are severely weakened/ diseased in the body systems that have been affected strongly even in the healthy people

Thus: Certain persons with seriously weakened systems could possibly die from envenomations from the more venomous T's.

--That was my reasoning

And you can tell by reading a bite report here the bite sympthoms were indeed so severe that you conclude that a bite could be lethal. That is not going by facts, just purely on personal opinion.
The evidence is opposite - no deaths and no even close to death. That is evidence.

And again, not all deaths everywhere are documented. Just because there are no documented recoreds, doesn't mean they haven't happened. In fact, in places that keep records, a person is LESS likely to die from any envenomation...snake, spider/ whatever, because the countries and regions that keep records have 1) healthier people through better economies and thus better nutrition 2) medical facilities / personnel to treat envenomation victims AND other diseases/ conditions which make people more susceptible to envenomations. It is the countries with regions for which there ARE no records that are most likely to have deaths.

Deaths from venomous snakes are indeed reported from these areas, why would you trhink they would keep shut about other dangerous animals in the same regions? Again, you speculating.

Yes, I think so. Why would they bother to inform us? Unless someone traveled around and asked them, I really doubt they'd bother to travel all the way to the outside world just to tell us. AND, a person investigating this would have to ask every family of natives in order to have a definitive answer yea or nay.

For the same reason venomous snake bites and deaths get reported. This is not stone age places and they do have people visiting these areas so offcourse fatal bites would get reported. I do think your idea of how these areas really are showned in your arguments.

How is that relevant? You don't need a forest the size of the Amazon in order for it to have remote regions. And no, they don't have any of the hotter T's in the Amazon. What is your point with this?

No maybe. But the larger a area is of deep forest, the greater chance for a tribe to live undisturbed. I made this point because your argument was that tribes that didnt have any contact wityh the rest of the world might suffer lethal bites from tarantulas. I showed you that most of these seclusive tribes indeed live in south america. Where none of what you call "hot" ts are found. Or maybe you will say a undescribed tarantula are the one that kills people...
Why not? It would fit your reasoning.

Why wouldn't they be concerned about T bites, especially if they do cause the occasional death? At the very least, I bet they know the amount of pain they can cause.

Because they are no threat. As easy as that. Pain dont equal a live threatening bite.

All right, toxinologists are in PNG, but are they asking the people about their T envenomations? Are they treating T envenomations? If not, then their contact with these people has little or no bearing at all on our discussion.

I would think the locals would not be shy to tell a toxinologist that are known there that a spider bit them. I dont understand why you think othervise.

What about Becca? She's into spiders. I have had very high blood pressure ( 165/93 ), and persistent cardiac palpitations...what about me? I'm into spiders. What about the people--like the soccer players you mentioned--who don't KNOW they have heart condition?

Sorry I dont have Beccas medical record and I dont wanna speculate about her health status. As I say, these soccer player - if it was heart problems - might have died from going up a staircase.

--That only supports my case. If they didn't know they had a heart condition, they would not have that reason to keep them from buying hotter T's--thereby putting themselves at a higher risk. It only shows how people can be more susceptible to T bites.

No it doesnt support your case because there are no documentation of a heart patient getting bitten by a tarantula and dies - this is only your theory taken out of the blue based on reports that anyone should take with a pinch of salt.
There are no deaths from any tarantula envenomation, regardless of species, and THAT is the facts.

The evidence and documentations support my view. As I said before
I was making an inferrence from the evidence:

1. Certain T's have caused strong effects on humans

2. The victims in these cases were apparantly otherwise healthy, and yet sustained rather serious symptoms

3. Certain persons are severely weakened/ diseased in the body systems that have been affected strongly even in the healthy people

Thus: Certain persons with seriously weakened systems could possibly die from envenomations from the more venomous T's.

Yes, these are my "personal ideas"--but I didn't just pull them out of thin air. They are supported by the observed facts.


Again, it depends on who the "you" in "they can kill you" is. I have--and have shown--ample reason to believe that certain persons could die.

People get bitten and writes a bite report based on their experience, these people are not doctors and cannot infact know for sure what the heart rythm etc really are caused by or how seroius the effects are.
BUT if you and others believe these spiders are indeed lethal (without one single evidence that shows they infact are dangerous and kill people) and can kill you - and a person reads this -then he gets bitten by one of these so called dangerous spiders - he will most certainly overreact and believe he is in big trouble.
You say serious sympthoms, but cramps in limbs and pain are not serious sympthoms.

/Lelle

 

[noname]

I've read in a danish article that many of the lethal scorpionstings in Africa aren't reported as scorpionstings but just as a death. Therefore, I think that the same could have happened with a T in a similar country.

And the fact that there are no records of deaths due to Ts is not what we (scientific educated people) call an evidence. It's just a fact.

 

[Slizarus]

Well I didn't want to get into this, but I might as well..
Crotalus,
"Again, the exploding yucca example - maybe some think that story is true - but just because they think so it doesnt make it true"
We can make the same conclusion about deaths, just because most people believe (With good reason) that there have been no deaths accorded to T venom, doesn't make it true that in ALL cases there have been no deaths.
It's a wide world out there, and as you keep saying there have been no documented cases of death by T venom, however you must realize the fact (In fact I'm sure you do) that there are multiple places in this world where dangerous T's do exist near a small settlement of humans. In most cases these people cannot read nor write, have no access to a hospital and unless it's a good place for herping. Somehow I doubt there are a lot of outsiders.
Those few outsiders who come "Might" ask about the history and any unusual deaths of the village members, now imagine an elderly, a child, or a meek adult dying from unknown causes somewhat similar to a mild snake venom.
The village would bury the dead then move on knowing that such things occur, how would they report it to the outsider? As they've observed: Snake.

I cannot remove the thought from my mind that somewhere someone has died because of a T, even if they're in good health (in comparison to their fellow's) and once they're dead, others mistake it for another cause.

Just because you haven't heard it happen, doesn't mean that our hypothesus is false.

Sorry if my thoughts seem unorganized, but I can't really win can I? All I can offer is as many counters to the belief that it never happens and let it be.. so eh.

 

[Crotalus]

Just because you haven't heard it happen, doesn't mean that our hypothesus is false.
.

But should we talk about tarantulas and tarantula venom as dangerous? I dont think so. I prefer to stick with facts and not fiction.

/Lelle

 

[Venom]

"And you can tell by reading a bite report here the bite sympthoms were indeed so severe that you conclude that a bite could be lethal. That is not going by facts, just purely on personal opinion.
The evidence is opposite - no deaths and no even close to death. That is evidence."

-->I am going by my personal opinion as much as you are. Don't tell me you are just "going by the facts", because you are interpreting the facts according to your opinion. We are interpreting the facts in different ways. You see bite reports with no deaths as "See, it can't happen, it never has", whereas I see a bite report and say "Sure, he didn't die, but he was really messed up. Someone in worse health might not have done so well." You are convinced that a death from T bites cannot happen--based on what? Based on bite reports from hobbyists who haven't died. I, however, am looking at the non-lethal symptoms they suffered and extrapolating that, logically, if a healthy person suffered X amount of systemic symptoms, then a very un healthy person would suffer even greater distress from the bite--and that comparison is operating on the assumption that the two people are of the same age. If the second person is not only in much poorer health, but also much younger and weaker, then that would further increase the severity of the symptoms that we can expect the bite to cause. Given that the bites in HEALTHY, ADULT hobbyists have caused symptoms such as, and I quote the bite reports:

" I could feel the muscles in my chest tighten and my heart felt like it was about to burst. Soon after that I had to vomit, and became nasious from a good 3 hours after that."
--->http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=21229

"all of a sudden my eyes got blurry and my heart started beating very very hard and fast. I thought it was going to pop,"
--->http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=11996

"My shoulder hurts and I'm aslo haveing pains shoot across me chest."
--->http://www.thetarantulastoreforum.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=248&hl=

" i couldnt see or think clearly then i began to have difficulties swallowing, i forgot where i was and was sweating an extremely nautious .."
--->http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=939

"He could hardly walk (walked like granny), knees were stiff, chest was tight, breathing heavily"
--->http://www.bighairyspiders.com/bites.shtml#pregalis

"for around 3 hours still nauseated I started to feel abit feverish with chills. I fell asleep woke up in the morning. completely still nauseated and had shortness of breath"
--->http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=1901

....I think it is very reasonable to believe that in small and infirm children, etc. a strong envenomation from these species could possibly kill them.



"For the same reason venomous snake bites and deaths get reported. This is not stone age places and they do have people visiting these areas so offcourse fatal bites would get reported. I do think your idea of how these areas really are showned in your arguments."

and

"Deaths from venomous snakes are indeed reported from these areas, why would you trhink they would keep shut about other dangerous animals in the same regions? Again, you speculating."

-->Is every death from a snake bite reported? Obviously, no. Tarantulas would of course cause far fewer deaths than snakes, and so would not be as likely to be reported, simply from a mathematical standpoint. If the number of deaths from T's is equal to or less than the percentage of snakebite deaths that are not reported, then it becomes unlikely that the T deaths will be reported, especially since the people that the deaths are being reported to are generally herpetologists. Herpers would naturally ask about snakebite deaths, and not T bites. They would be especially unlikely to ask about tarantula bites if they were convinced even before they arrived that tarantulas would not be causing any fatal bites. So if he doesn't ask, they probably won't mention it. They They know the herpetologist is looking for snakes and interested in snake bites, so they tell him only about the snakebites he wants to hear about. This would hold true for toxinologists as well. If they are convinced that there will be no deaths from tarantulas, and are only in the country inquiring after snake bites, then it isn't likely that he will ask about tarantula bites. And furthermore, since even if T's do cause deaths, they would be pretty scarce, the likelihood of a toxinologist and/ or herpetologist visiting the villages where T deaths occur would be slim, and would further decrease the probability of the deaths being reported. The fact that snake bites are reported does not definitively mean that tarantula bites will be reported. After all, in the minds of people of your persuasion, "they don't happen," so why inquire?



"No maybe. But the larger a area is of deep forest, the greater chance for a tribe to live undisturbed. I made this point because your argument was that tribes that didnt have any contact wityh the rest of the world might suffer lethal bites from tarantulas. I showed you that most of these seclusive tribes indeed live in south america. Where none of what you call "hot" ts are found. Or maybe you will say a undescribed tarantula are the one that kills people...
Why not? It would fit your reasoning."


-->No, you didn't. You didn't prove anything. You simply said that it is a small island compared with the Amazon. It is still a pretty big place, and there are tribes there who pretty much live in seclusion.



"Because they are no threat. As easy as that. Pain dont equal a live threatening bite."

-->The bite reports I've shown detail that even in healthy adult hobbyists, bites from some species have caused difficulty breathing, strong chest pains, heart hyperactivity, unconsciousness, vomiting. These are more than "ow, that hurt" bites, they are serious systemic symptoms.


"I would think the locals would not be shy to tell a toxinologist that are known there that a spider bit them. I dont understand why you think othervise."

-->Do they know what a toxinologist even is? A guy walks into the village asking about snakes, so they tell him about snakes. The toxinologist only asks about snakes because he assumes that there is nothing to be reported to him concerning deaths from T's. He's not interested in deaths from T's because there have been no reported deaths from T's, no documented accounts. Thus, the fact that there have been no reports of deaths from T's could actually help to prevent deaths from T's from being reported. It's a vicious circle. The people in the village, not knowing that a toxinologist would be interested in anything venomous, don't mention it to him, because all they know is that he's asking about snakes.


"Sorry I dont have Beccas medical record and I dont wanna speculate about her health status. As I say, these soccer player - if it was heart problems - might have died from going up a staircase."

-->As you've said, they could die from simply going up a staircase. Thus, if they are that fragile, they might also die from a bad poec or stromato bite. This is an example of how someone with a really severely impaired vital function, ( such as might be caused by a heart or respiratory condition ) could be killed by a T bite.


"No it doesnt support your case because there are no documentation of a heart patient getting bitten by a tarantula and dies - this is only your theory taken out of the blue based on reports that anyone should take with a pinch of salt.
There are no deaths from any tarantula envenomation, regardless of species, and THAT is the facts."

-->Do you need it to actually happen before you will believe that it can happen?



"People get bitten and writes a bite report based on their experience, these people are not doctors and cannot infact know for sure what the heart rythm etc really are caused by or how seroius the effects are."

-->Doctors take reported symptoms seriously. You should too.

"BUT if you and others believe these spiders are indeed lethal"

-->I'm not saying they are lethal , I'm saying that certain T's can be potentially fatal to persons in already seriously impaired health.

"(without one single evidence that shows they infact are dangerous and kill people) and can kill you"

-->There is plenty of evidence that they can be dangerous. Read the bite reports. Strong systemic symptoms + really crummy health = a very dangerous situation I am simply putting 2 and 2 together.

"- and a person reads this -then he gets bitten by one of these so called dangerous spiders - he will most certainly overreact and believe he is in big trouble."

-->Better to take it too seriously than not seriously enough.


"You say serious sympthoms, but cramps in limbs and pain are not serious sympthoms."

-->Again, difficulty breathing, unusual heart activity, unconsciousness--these are more than cramps and pain.

 

[Sheri]

I cannot remove the thought from my mind that somewhere someone has died because of a T, even if they're in good health (in comparison to their fellow's) and once they're dead, others mistake it for another cause.

Just because you haven't heard it happen, doesn't mean that our hypothesus is false.

I like to think that my dog is capable of understanding what I say from time to time. But there is NO substantiated proof.

Occasionally, I think about the existance of vampires on earth. Because that would be pretty cool.
And I suppose just because no one has EVER documented these things that it doesn't mean my ideas are impossible.

But the stark reality of research and the information age almost entirely discount the notion that T's (species that we are aware of now, and by extension, it is likely that further ones that might be discovered will also not be of medical significance) can be lethal to humans.

We know of other dangerous spiders. Leave snakes out of it entirely. Think of true spiders in remote places that are known to be dangerous. Why would we know of those species that cause death or serious injury but not tarantulas.

Wanting to think something cannot replace logic, science, or evidence. I would ask why you want to persist in this notion despite the lack of any evidence or research that suggests it might be true?

One of the truly remarkable things about our hobby is that we can keep these remarkable creatures without much risk, and we have the opportunity to educate rather than perpetrate an unfounded fear.