I tried to drive a spider insane, once (over handling)

[PhobeToPhile]

Further neither of these instances give any evidence to support the idea that a tarantula can "enjoy" handling as many people here seem to think. .

This I definitely agree with. What a tarantula enjoys is a proper cage with proper humidity levels and substrate, and a nice fat cricket/roach/mouse etc. to eat. Handling is for our enjoyment, and for the education of others others that these animals are not blood thirsty monsters out to steal virgins to devour alive and kill brave young men in shining armor.

If handling is directly associated with being fed-i.e. the tarantula is fed while on the hand (WHY you would do this is beyond me)-, it might become conditioned to associate the hand with food, and react accordling to the presence of the hand in the cage. It would certainly make for a good experiment if nothing else.

 

[Fran]

This I definitely agree with. What a tarantula enjoys is a proper cage with proper humidity levels and substrate, and a nice fat cricket/roach/mouse etc. to eat. Handling is for our enjoyment, and for the education of others others that these animals are not blood thirsty monsters out to steal virgins to devour alive and kill brave young men in shining armor.

If handling is directly associated with being fed-i.e. the tarantula is fed while on the hand (WHY you would do this is beyond me)-, it might become conditioned to associate the hand with food, and react accordling to the presence of the hand in the cage. It would certainly make for a good experiment if nothing else.

I think people is EXTREMELY stubborn on the idea of enjoyment or adapting to handleing.

 

[PhobeToPhile]

Which is why I suggest an experiment to try and put the issue to rest. Of course, even then it doesn't prove the spider enjoys being handled-it simply means the spider is capable of associative learning. Though to be honest, I wouldn't have the balls to test this with the negative stimulus group...any volunteers?

 

[NChromatus]

It would certainly make for a good experiment if nothing else.

It would. A proper experiment would show if a tarantula is capable of associative learning, which is required for both classical and operant conditioning.

Most important in such an experiment would be accounting for the limitations of tarantulas' senses. Since tarantulas can't see images, it is doubtful that they could identify a hand before it has touched them. When a hand reaches into a tarantulas' cage, it is likely that they only are able to see, at best, a looming shadow. The unknown nature of what they are able to see would make it difficult to draw conclusions surrounding reaching into a cage. However, if a tarantula is capable of associative learning, and under circumstances in which such looming shadows are controlled, the tarantula could even come to associate a looming shadow with food.

Conclusions could be better drawn from an experiment focusing on stimuli for which tarantulas' capabilities are more understood- touch and chemoreceptive senses. A touch/vibration (which could be picking up the tarantula) or chemical stimulus could be introduced immediately before or while feeding. However, an unconditioned response of the tarantula to food (analogous to Pavlov's dogs' drooling) first would have to be identified so that the researcher would know what to look for as evidence of a conditioned response to the conditioned stimulus, whether the conditioned stimulus was being handled, or something else.

In other words, what behaviors do tarantulas exhibit in response to food that would be practical to measure in an experiment?

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

So destruction of web is consistent every time? That still puts stress on a T correct? Anyway I don't believe that Ts "enjoy" handling or are capable of understanding that we are holding them, but I certainly believe they can get use to it, and stress will be reduced over time.

 

[flamesbane]

So destruction of web is consistent every time? That still puts stress on a T correct? Anyway I don't believe that Ts "enjoy" handling or are capable of understanding that we are holding them, but I certainly believe they can get use to it, and stress will be reduced over time.

Much more consistent than handling, and much less stressful IMO.

 

[LeilaNami]

Good lord, I'll just make this my graduate study and be done with it.

I agree with those stating that the tarantula does not "enjoy" anything. I also agree that this is not learning or "taming" but more of habituation. Those talking about the spiders actively trying to get out of their enclosure when they approach the cage, do you not think that maybe, just maybe, that could be a flee response to the stimulus of a large being simply walking into the room? If they've been pulled from their burrow before, I'd like to speculate that tarantulas as an animal have enough instinct in them for self-preservation (and they obviously do via autonomy, etc.) to "recognize" that the place they built their burrow is not adequate anymore? Just like with the web, if you are pulling the tarantula out of the burrow itself, do you not think it plausible that they are going to try a new approach to fleeing a danger other than running down the burrow or hiding behind the whatever?

I'm not advocating or condemning handling. I personally only handle mine as needed (like for lectures) or if I get "an itch". I also only handle the ones that are docile enough to do so without trying to force an unwilling T out of its enclosure. I'm content with just observing. I don't see a problem with safe handling however I do not agree with the perpetuation that the T "enjoys" anything you are doing.

 

[cacoseraph]

please note, i have only read through post #120 or so.

thanks to all the ppl who have posted genuine experiences.

fie on those who just post mindless drivel of any nature... but double fie on those who keep grunting "handling bad, me talk scientist". put up or shut up. also, as Mr. I kind of said, it is very weak forms of an arguist to attack people, purposefully miscontrue posts so as to weaken them for your attacks, etc. in a real debate with actual judges i would slice and dice you. most of your agruments can be killed with single word rebuttals. usually "topicality"



THANK YOU to those ppl who keep bringing the thread back on topic and provide some working defintions. as has been said, the actual definitions of some of the words being used is VERY important.

i do not think i have ever said tarantulas can be tamed. tamed has high animal requirements that spiders just do not meet. *adaption* however, is well within their capacity. scientists have determined simple worms can learn to solve VERY simple mazes in which wrong answers lead to electrified floors. to say a tarantula is incapable of even that is to demonstrate laughably ill educated values =P

Well, what I can say is that the word "tamed" should never have been brought into the discussion, as it's completly irrelavnt with spiders. They can't be tamed. They can, however, show signs of adaptations. They adapt to the enviroment they are currently in, which happens to be our homes. They adapt to being handled. They do not enjoy it, they do not get excited, they do not consider it quality time, but they tolerate it, because to an instinctdriven being like the tarantula, it's evolve or die. Although I hardly think any of us would smash an unhandleable tarantula, it's their instinct taking over "telling" them to "go with the flow". If it happens often the tarantula will adapt to being "safely" handled, because it has not caused them any harm, thus not setting of their "alarms". I don't believe they learn or enjoy anything. I believe they adapt. I know too little to say for sure wether or not it is indeed harmless to handle a tarantula in what you'd call a safe manner(on a bed, close to the floor etc.), but as long as precautions are taken, dangers can be be largely avoided.

That being said, I handle my versicolor Dumpling from time to time, though rather scarcely, and she seems to have adapted to the fact that it poses to immidiate danger to her. If I lightly tap the top of her enclosure, she will, instead of retreating as my other spiders do, come up from her webbing, and will without coaxing come out. I believe, however, this is merely her instinct and adaptations "speaking". Her instincts being "climb as high as possible" her adaptation being "I've survived in the past".

I believe a tarantula is very survival driven creatures, and that being handled in a regular basis only adapts them to the fact that they will survive it, thus not "regarding" it a threat.

+1! good stuff here, very spot on to what i think as far as i can see

The problem is that when someone comments out of pure reason, then some call us stubborn.

I Dont believe tarantulas recognize our hands or even remmember that the handling is not dangerous. I believe is ABSOLUTELY COINCIDENCIAL.
Some of them, some days, tolerate the handling...and some day,the day number "X" they jump and bite you.

They are animals, on top of that a arachnids...Some people give them WAY too much credit.

a prime example of miscontruing and/or picking the most extreme examples of a perceived side, attacking them, and then thinking you have answered for the whole of the other side's arguments.

btw, the only time, out of thousands of handlings that i have been bitten by a tarantula was when i tweaked the front legs of a little P. irimina that was running up my arm. totally my fault.

You cant possibily compare tarantulas to dogs, let alone human beings.

The tarantula keeping hobby began around the 80's.
In 30 years theres not possible "taming" , "adapting" or "domesticating" .
Maybe in 30.000 years, and with creatures as simple as T's is very doubtful.

Let me remind you that the dogs, creatures LIGHT YEARS more evolved than arachnids, took over 15.000 years to domesticate as the dogs we have today.

For those who saying that some of us might give too little creit for not believing that they can be happy in your hands, and they love to be handle and runn arround the
room...Well, yes, then indeed Im giving them veeery little credit.

i believe you need to familiarize yourself with the three words i bolded. they do not all mean the same thing, though taming and domesticating are much more alike than either is to adapting

Strange that my spiders never "adapted" to me cleaning their enclosures.

ah, part of why i want anecdotes is because their is a time related factor(s) that i am wanting to nail down better. all your statement means to me is that you clean quickly enough and infrequently enough to not cause any observable behavioral changes in your spiders. i am curious, what is your cleaning schedule like?






i'll be back to read posts >=121 later =P

 

[Kirsten]

Well, what I can say is that the word "tamed" should never have been brought into the discussion, as it's completly irrelavnt with spiders. They can't be tamed. They can, however, show signs of adaptations. They adapt to the enviroment they are currently in, which happens to be our homes. They adapt to being handled. They do not enjoy it, they do not get excited, they do not consider it quality time, but they tolerate it, because to an instinctdriven being like the tarantula, it's evolve or die. Although I hardly think any of us would smash an unhandleable tarantula, it's their instinct taking over "telling" them to "go with the flow". If it happens often the tarantula will adapt to being "safely" handled, because it has not caused them any harm, thus not setting of their "alarms". I don't believe they learn or enjoy anything. I believe they adapt. I know too little to say for sure wether or not it is indeed harmless to handle a tarantula in what you'd call a safe manner(on a bed, close to the floor etc.), but as long as precautions are taken, dangers can be be largely avoided.

That being said, I handle my versicolor Dumpling from time to time, though rather scarcely, and she seems to have adapted to the fact that it poses to immidiate danger to her. If I lightly tap the top of her enclosure, she will, instead of retreating as my other spiders do, come up from her webbing, and will without coaxing come out. I believe, however, this is merely her instinct and adaptations "speaking". Her instincts being "climb as high as possible" her adaptation being "I've survived in the past".

I believe a tarantula is very survival driven creatures, and that being handled in a regular basis only adapts them to the fact that they will survive it, thus not "regarding" it a threat.

This is more or less my take as well.

 

[Fran]

a prime example of miscontruing and/or picking the most extreme examples of a perceived side, attacking them, and then thinking you have answered for the whole of the other side's arguments.

btw, the only time, out of thousands of handlings that i have been bitten by a tarantula was when i tweaked the front legs of a little P. irimina that was running up my arm. totally my fault.

Caco,

Yoy kn ow very well what I think about you.
You are a really entusiastic keeper with knowledge, and when you handle them I believe you do it carrying with ALL the consecuences.

BUT,

Sorry but I dont agree with you at all in here...
The people who think arachnids are behaving in such fashion is giving WAY too much credit to them.

Re read my posts, I dont think you are taking them for what they say.

I ABSOLUTELY believe that the fact that only you have been bitten ONCE is absolutely coincidencial. Doesnt mean anything but;

A: You "know" very well their reactions and "body language" while handling and move accordingly

B:You just only been bitten once because of Pure, plain and simple coincidence.

 

[LeilaNami]

please note, i have only read through post #120 or so.

thanks to all the ppl who have posted genuine experiences.

fie on those who just post mindless drivel of any nature... but double fie on those who keep grunting "handling bad, me talk scientist". put up or shut up. also, as Mr. I kind of said, it is very weak forms of an arguist to attack people, purposefully miscontrue posts so as to weaken them for your attacks, etc. in a real debate with actual judges i would slice and dice you. most of your agruments can be killed with single word rebuttals. usually "topicality"



THANK YOU to those ppl who keep bringing the thread back on topic and provide some working definitions. as has been said, the actual definitions of some of the words being used is VERY important.

i do not think i have ever said tarantulas can be tamed. tamed has high animal requirements that spiders just do not meet. *adaption* however, is well within their capacity. scientists have determined simple worms can learn to solve VERY simple mazes in which wrong answers lead to electrified floors. to say a tarantula is incapable of even that is to demonstrate laughably ill educated values =P


+1! good stuff here, very spot on to what i think as far as i can see


i'll be back to read posts >=121 later =P

Now referring to this argument, if you are concerned with definition of words, adaption/adaptation in biological terms refers to the adaptation taking place over an evolutionary time scale and not an individual's life span. So I understand what you are saying but I don't know if adaption would be the proper word to use in this case. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I think what stemmed most of these irrelevant arguments, cacoseraph, were people trying to support your idea but they were also misconstruing what you were saying to be "the spider enjoyed the handling" or the tarantula was "tamed" and in turn misconstrued statements opposing the original misconstrued statements were born. I think the majority of this thread is just comprised of the misuse of vocabulary and too much testosterone.