Mature male acanthoscurria... what?

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Ethel (older photo)
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Spermethecae from last molt
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Nice beautiful Acanthoscurria geniculata! Thanks for providing the photo.


Jose

 

[Bugmom]

Nice beautiful Acanthoscurria geniculata! Thanks for providing the photo.


Jose

Thanks! She's one of my favorites. I bought her from a pet store for $50 back in Nov. '12. I think I got pretty lucky there.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Are they a 100% different species ?or like a brachy color-morph?
Got any pics of the Female Spermethecae , or each species to compare them?

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Are they a 100% different species ?or like a brachy color-morph?
Got any pics of the Female Spermethecae , or each species to compare them?

The problem is by going with the spermathecae supposedly it does not do any good to identify a spider. The proper way is DNA testing only! Which it will be impossible for everyone to do. As Poec54 has stated in the past it is best to keep geniculata separate from the brocklehursti. Even though some people are saying that both species could actually be the same.
As for myself do not believe they are the same I believe that they are separate species. Just because someone wants to do a change by stating that both are the same and we need to change our labels I personally won't do it until proven otherwise. I need proof!
I talk to Philth (Tom Patterson) last night about this two species and I told him how to identify the two different species hopefully it helped him a little. And I also think that the real brocklehursti is out of this photo taking by http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Acanthroscurria_brocklehursti__10_.JPG
I don't know if it's just the photo itself that made the spider look a little different than mine which is this photo http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-content/gallery/tarantulas/acanthoscurria-brocklehursti-f.jpg
And again here is my old female Acanthoscurria geniculata http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-content/gallery/tarantulas/acanthoscurria-geniculata-f.jpg even back in 2003-04 when I first own geniculata has always looked like this one that I just post a link to my photo gallery of my website.
There is no way for me going by the looks of this two spiders are any way the same species. Again I will say this until proven otherwise I will keep them separate from each other.
Here is my female brocklehursti that I own as of now http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-content/gallery/tarantulas/acanthoscurria-brocklehursti-f.jpg
Here again mature male brocklehursti http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-content/gallery/tarantulas/acanthoscurria-brocklehursti-m.jpg
Here again mature male geniculata http://exoskeletoninverts.com/wp-content/gallery/tarantulas/acanthoscurria-geniculata-m.jpg
I just can't imagine both being the same species specially after my experience with owning both of them and studying there looks. No it does not make me an expert. But I will go by there looks to keep them both apart from each other until proven otherwise!


Jose

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

My A brock female looks like yours, I wonder what species they actualy are.
mike's Acanthroscurria_brocklehursti has a rather large carpace.

Hard to say which one is the real A brock. Maybe Mikes is as you said, you definitly know a lot more info ! on this topic.

My A brock was a freebie, now one of my favorite spiders.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

My A brock female looks like yours, I wonder what species they actualy are.
mike's Acanthroscurria_brocklehursti has a rather large carpace.

Hard to say which one is the real A brock. Maybe Mikes is as you said, you definitly know a lot more info ! on this topic.

My A brock was a freebie, now one of my favorite spiders.

I believe that the specimen that is on http://www.mikebasictarantula.com/Acanthroscurria_brocklehursti__2_.JPG website photo gallery holds the key of what the Acanthoscurria broklehursti really suppose to look like. Maybe Mike's brocklehursti was one of the few wild caught specimen that came into the US? After all he is out of Florida. And maybe Mike's brocklehursti was a captive born baby or just simply the photo is a throwing us off a bit. I may get in touch with Mike and ask him myself when his photo was taken and if his brocklehursti was captive born or wild caught. Regardless I would not mix the geniculata or the brocklehursti.


Jode

 

[KcFerry]

It's interesting that I don't see many A. brocks or genic's where each white knee stripe is split...(two thin stripes rather than solid white). I have noticed this in both species, but usually in older pic's?
I'm not convinced that they are sexually compatible, but clearly something is causing the "split" striped ones to become less common. The pic Jose posted is a good example of this variation.
Even if they were somehow hybridized in the past, I think anyone who has either species should know how to tell them apart.
MM are easy to call, since they all but loose their white stripes. With immature males and females the dark stripes on the outer part of the front patella are consistently different, with the A. brock having a longer, less triangular stripe. They are not that difficult to tell apart if you spend some time looking at these stripes and comparing them to a confirmed species.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

It's interesting that I don't see many A. brocks or genic's where each white knee stripe is split...(two thin stripes rather than solid white). I have noticed this in both species, but usually in older pic's?
I'm not convinced that they are sexually compatible, but clearly something is causing the "split" striped ones to become less common. The pic Jose posted is a good example of this variation.
Even if they were somehow hybridized in the past, I think anyone who has either species should know how to tell them apart.
MM are easy to call, since they all but loose their white stripes. With immature males and females the dark stripes on the outer part of the front patella are consistently different, with the A. brock having a longer, less triangular stripe. They are not that difficult to tell apart if you spend some time looking at these stripes and comparing them to a confirmed species.

The split happens differently with different species or genus. I know with Grammostola sp. happens anywhere from 4.5" and up. Brachypelma smithi starts to split 5.5" and up, this is just an approximate guess. I remember back in 2004 I had a geniculata that was at least 8" inches she had the split that you are referring to.
Bugmom what size is your geniculata?
My geniculata from 2009 her size was anywhere from 5" to 5.5" and the split was not developed at that size. My brocklehursti that I have right now there is no split and she is at 7.75" to 8" inches. Even though she is at 7.75" to 8" inches it does not mean she will not get the split.


Jose

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Adding to the confusion!

Wow! I have never seen a mature male Acanthoscurria geniculata or brocklehursti that look like this one http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...tions-about-my-male-Acanthoscurria-geniculata A member on Arachnoboards posted a thread back in 2008 stating that he has a mature male Acanthoscurria geniculata which clearly to me seems like a brocklehursti showing the short bandings on the legs. This spider really has some short bandings, compare to other mature male brocklehursti that I have owned, or photos that I have seen on the web. But this spider also has the white striping to the patella that has me very confused? Compare to other mature males brocklehursti that I have owned or photos that I have seen on the web. Could this one be a hybrid or the real brocklehursti?



Jose

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Tom,
You been around for a while how do we know which species MM is which??? How do we know older hobbyists didn't breed hybrids?

---------- Post added 11-08-2014 at 11:50 PM ----------

Spiders not mating isn't a good way to ID a species if you ask me. I can't tell you how many times I've had spiders not want to mate, and they were definitely the same species, sometimes even brother and sisters from the same sac. I can't help to think A. geniculata hasn't been mixed with A. brocklehursti over the years. I just don't believe that they wont mate, because they are that different. According to current taxonomic revisions, they are the same species anyways, just considered a variation. I'm not saying its OK to mix them, but I'm willing to bet these 2 species have been mixed just as much as P. subfusca HL/LL thing.

Later, Tom

How do you Id them? seems majority of older hobbyists aren't on forums often anymore.

 

[catfishrod69]

Personally i think your best bet is to let that male sit in his enclosure by himself and end his days a virgin. If your not 100% sure of a species, never chance breeding them. A. genics and brockle can sometimes be rough to pair, so that doesnt completely mean they arent the same species. But if your not positive they are, best to just let this one pass by.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Personally i think your best bet is to let that male sit in his enclosure by himself and end his days a virgin. If your not 100% sure of a species, never chance breeding them. A. genics and brockle can sometimes be rough to pair, so that doesnt completely mean they arent the same species. But if your not positive they are, best to just let this one pass by.

Females are 7" + if she wants to eat the male , MM is just food.

Does rick west? still Id T's or did he retire?
H Hercules was last thing I saw him involved in.

 

[Philth]

Wow! I have never seen a mature male Acanthoscurria geniculata or brocklehursti that look like this one http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...tions-about-my-male-Acanthoscurria-geniculata Could this one be a hybrid or the real brocklehursti?
Jose

No confusion here Jose, the spider in that thread is a mature male Nhandu chromatus. See how things are easily confused and mixed in this hobby from a photo ID ?

Tom,
You been around for a while how do we know which species MM is which??? How do we know older hobbyists didn't breed hybrids?

---------- Post added 11-08-2014 at 11:50 PM ----------



How do you Id them? seems majority of older hobbyists aren't on forums often anymore.

I don't know. I've been asking the same question this whole thread. I've never been able to tell them apart. I see some clear differences that have been pointed out in this thread. Then I see some that are labeled one way or anther and are questionable. The size of the spider has seem to make a difference with the variation of banding/striping or whatever. I'm still not sure how much variation makes one species different from another, and not convinced that these 2 species wont mix.

Jose said he wants proof that they are the same species in this thread, I asked for proof that they are different. We are asking the same question. no harm done here.

I have more to add to this if I remember tomorrow. Maybe I'll add some pics and we can guess what species they should be vs what they were sold to me as.

Later, Tom

 

[KcFerry]

I have more to add to this if I remember tomorrow. Maybe I'll add some pics and we can guess what species they should be vs what they were sold to me as.

Later, Tom

I look forward to seeing more pic's. I have a female A. geniculata which is due to pop any day now. she's been in pre-molt for over a month and her rump turned black last week. so I keep hoping to wake up to find her molted or molting. I'll post a pic of her and my A. brock also for more comparison. These 2 species keep me busy!

Kevin

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

No confusion here Jose, the spider in that thread is a mature male Nhandu chromatus. See how things are easily confused and mixed in this hobby from a photo ID ?




I don't know. I've been asking the same question this whole thread. I've never been able to tell them apart. I see some clear differences that have been pointed out in this thread. Then I see some that are labeled one way or anther and are questionable. The size of the spider has seem to make a difference with the variation of banding/striping or whatever. I'm still not sure how much variation makes one species different from another, and not convinced that these 2 species wont mix.

Jose said he wants proof that they are the same species in this thread, I asked for proof that they are different. We are asking the same question. no harm done here.

I have more to add to this if I remember tomorrow. Maybe I'll add some pics and we can guess what species they should be vs what they were sold to me as.

Later, Tom

Well I feel like an idiot! You're right it is a Nhandu chromatus, it's been a long time since I have owned a mature male of this species yet a lone a female. I'm surprise that no one questioned the member on the the boards that he had a mature male Nhandu chromatus.
Well I'm glad I'm the only one that got confused. This is exactly what I like about coming on Arachnoboards when someone is willing to teach you and not getting offensive about their teaching. Thanks Tom for pointing this out to me and others! My mistake!



Jose

 

[sjl197]

So, it's easy to distinguish males of Nhandu chromatus from those of any Acanthoscurria, mature males of the latter genus instead have a single massive inwardly pointing spur capped with spines.

As for 'A.geniculata' versus 'A.brocklehursti', firstly forget the name A.brocklehursti which is now a redundant (discarded) name for another much smaller Acanthoscurria, and secondly it's essentially impossible to distinguish males of hobby A.geniculata versus others sold as "A.brocklehursti" as there are no stable fixed differences, the banding pattern is highly variable and the male bulb is highly variable ... and its such variability amongst individuals that led to a recent paper concluding all as just a highly variable A.geniculata. If you're looking to keep the weakly banded form ('former hobby A.brocklehursti') as separate in the hobby, too late ... should have done that 15 years ago before breeders repeatedly mixed the various hobby 'forms'.

And yes, i agree two indivuduals not mating or not producing a viable eggsac doesn't make them different species ... could be the setup is wrong, the conditioning of the female is wrong, the male hasn't recently recharged sperm, etc etc ... many reasons.