Most potent Old World venom?

[Poec54]

People are unnecessarily condescending about this topic and it is sort of understandable if they have seen it rehashed a million times...If these guys do not have the patience to continue to help hobbyists understand possible ramifications of their words, or to stay open minded enough to see the other person's opinion, they should say nothing. I think we should be smart enough to realize that certain topics bring the worst from people and just choose to not talk about it, or talk about it with others in a private setting.

It's not condescending or close-minded at all. We're trying to keep tarantulas from being banned (which is a very real possibility), so we can all still enjoy them, which is why we were horrified at the pic of a guy with a Poecilotheria in his mouth. We also do not like their bites being sensationalized, as it creates fear and gets more fools trying dare devil stunts for attention. Had we just not had the same topic a week prior it would have been different, but the same thing week after week gets old. We don't need to continually play up the 'dangerous spider' thing here. People think 'public health concern.' Members should pay some attention when starting a thread, especially with a sensitive topic like this, dwelling on a side of the animals that gets too much negative attention as it is. It fuels the fire; we're trying to put the fires out. I repeatedly asked Bob to 'Please stop' and a number of members agreed with me. There aren't many bites to begin with, and most of those could be eliminated if people stopped handling their spiders, so let's stop fixating on bites; that's not why we have the animals. So before you put down us experienced collector as arrogant snobs, look at the big picture. We're trying to keep the hobby going, without regulations and bans, so guys like you can still own these animals decades down the road. You do not do that with threads like this.

 

[bscheidt1020]

It's not condescending or close-minded at all. We're trying to keep tarantulas from being banned (which is a very real possibility), so we can all still enjoy them, which is why we were horrified at the pic of a guy with a Poecilotheria in his mouth. We also do not like their bites being sensationalized, as it creates fear and gets more fools trying dare devil stunts for attention. Had we just not had the same topic a week prior it would have been different, but the same thing week after week gets old. We don't need to continually play up the 'dangerous spider' thing here. People think 'public health concern.' Members should pay some attention when starting a thread, especially with a sensitive topic like this, dwelling on a side of the animals that gets too much negative attention as it is. It fuels the fire; we're trying to put the fires out. I repeatedly asked Bob to 'Please stop' and a number of members agreed with me. There aren't many bites to begin with, and most of those could be eliminated if people stopped handling their spiders, so let's stop fixating on bites; that's not why we have the animals. So before you put down us experienced collector as arrogant snobs, look at the big picture. We're trying to keep the hobby going, without regulations and bans, so guys like you can still own these animals decades down the road. You do not do that with threads like this.

Understandable. However, sometimes it is not what you say, but how you say it. Asking him to please stop without taking the time to explain the consequences you wish to avoid(specifically the way you did for me just now) is bound to be misinterpreted as condescending or dismissive. You can't ask him or i to assume the best of your intentions if you are not willing to give him the same benefit of the doubt first. I, and I believe Bob also, are truly interested in the potential differences in the effects of these venoms. I believe in my ability to avoid bites but I am also respectful of the abilities of these animals. assuming a worst case scenario, knowledge of the different venoms may prove useful for prevention or remedy. I was not trying to support sensationalizing or exaggerating a tarantulas danger but find their venom interesting…rather a positive and impressive attribute of these creatures. I respect it and the animals that wield it. I know some may take it as cause for fear but I seek to expand my knowledge to be better at this hobby, to be a better ambassador for the hobby to others, and also to keep my collection manageable for my lifestyle. You may recall my consideration of keeping my collection exclusively to NWs going forth? Mostly this was due to hearing some experienced hobbyists sensationalizing the temperament of many OW species. Many people will attest to the relative shyness or calmness of their OWs(when talking with other keepers and not initiating a newbie). I figure this is because they interact with their spiders calmly and do not give the spider a reason to become defensive. I seek to be cautious and avoid disasters and hope that knowledge will help me in that goal. I think venom potency is a relevant topic and from my perception(which is based on typed word is by no means perfectly accurate), I think the reaction to this thread could have been handled better. I definitely felt a bit of Bob's frustration as I read the responses. My opinion may be based on complete ignorance but I would figure it is not completely ludicrous whether it differs from yours or not. I believe in talking to folks a certain way. Doesn't mean it is right but it shapes my opinions of the way I perceive the interactions between people. Needless to say, you are entitled to disagree and I do not take it personally.

 

[BobGrill]

It's not condescending or close-minded at all. We're trying to keep tarantulas from being banned (which is a very real possibility), so we can all still enjoy them, which is why we were horrified at the pic of a guy with a Poecilotheria in his mouth. We also do not like their bites being sensationalized, as it creates fear and gets more fools trying dare devil stunts for attention. Had we just not had the same topic a week prior it would have been different, but the same thing week after week gets old. We don't need to continually play up the 'dangerous spider' thing here. People think 'public health concern.' Members should pay some attention when starting a thread, especially with a sensitive topic like this, dwelling on a side of the animals that gets too much negative attention as it is. It fuels the fire; we're trying to put the fires out. I repeatedly asked Bob to 'Please stop' and a number of members agreed with me. There aren't many bites to begin with, and most of those could be eliminated if people stopped handling their spiders, so let's stop fixating on bites; that's not why we have the animals. So before you put down us experienced collector as arrogant snobs, look at the big picture. We're trying to keep the hobby going, without regulations and bans, so guys like you can still own these animals decades down the road. You do not do that with threads like this.

I find the concept of venom toxicology to be a fascinating topic. What exactly is so wrong about that? I think you're really jumping to conclusions here.

 

[viper69]

I find the concept of venom toxicology to be a fascinating topic. What exactly is so wrong about that? I think you're really jumping to conclusions here.

What aspects of venom toxicology? I find it fascinating myself. If you are interested, perhaps you should read about the Conus family of snails IF you haven't already.

I'll say this, various peptides used in research are not necessarily from Ts and other animals with the most potent venom. One reason the animals with the most potent venom are studied is because those toxins tend to affect the cardiovascular and pulmonary systems or those systems indirectly via the nervous system. Thus killing their prey quite quickly. These peptides are always potential therapeutic products.

However, some peptides are found to be equally valuable in animals that are not so toxic to humans, ie they don't kill humans, or the peptides affect other systems secondarily that are not so critical to life.

It's a crap shoot when it comes to toxins if any will be useful for human therapies.

 

[BobGrill]

What aspects of venom toxicology? I find it fascinating myself. If you are interested, perhaps you should read about the Conus family of snails IF you haven't already.

.

I have done a bit of reading on them actually. I think it's pretty cool how fast acting their venom is on their prey. Then again, I supposed it has to be since they prey mainly on fast-swimming fish.

Anyway, I think the subject of this thread was just very misunderstood.

 

[viper69]

I have done a bit of reading on them actually. I think it's pretty cool how fast acting their venom is on their prey. Then again, I supposed it has to be since they prey mainly on fast-swimming fish.

Anyway, I think the subject of this thread was just very misunderstood.

There's a snake in Australia (Aussie) (they have 8 of the 10 most venomous snakes in the world), I believe it's Aussie's most toxic snake, and scientists have long been puzzled why such an animal that lives in the desert with few predators is so venomous. One theory is that food is SO scarce in its habitat that it can't afford to have one meal escape.

Look up Irukandji jellyfish, specifically the smallest species. It's just barely 1" long, most venomous animal in the world if I recall correctly, more so than blue-ringed octopus or seasnake. I talked to a leading scientist in Aussie about them and they have no idea why such a tiny, frail creature would produce the most powerful toxins.

 

[Poec54]

Understandable. However, sometimes it is not what you say, but how you say it. Asking him to please stop without taking the time to explain the consequences you wish to avoid(specifically the way you did for me just now) is bound to be misinterpreted as condescending or dismissive. You can't ask him or i to assume the best of your intentions if you are not willing to give him the same benefit of the doubt first. I, and I believe Bob also, are truly interested in the potential differences in the effects of these venoms. I believe in my ability to avoid bites but I am also respectful of the abilities of these animals. assuming a worst case scenario, knowledge of the different venoms may prove useful for prevention or remedy. I was not trying to support sensationalizing or exaggerating a tarantulas danger but find their venom interesting…rather a positive and impressive attribute of these creatures. I respect it and the animals that wield it. I know some may take it as cause for fear but I seek to expand my knowledge to be better at this hobby, to be a better ambassador for the hobby to others, and also to keep my collection manageable for my lifestyle. You may recall my consideration of keeping my collection exclusively to NWs going forth? Mostly this was due to hearing some experienced hobbyists sensationalizing the temperament of many OW species. Many people will attest to the relative shyness or calmness of their OWs(when talking with other keepers and not initiating a newbie). I figure this is because they interact with their spiders calmly and do not give the spider a reason to become defensive. I seek to be cautious and avoid disasters and hope that knowledge will help me in that goal. I think venom potency is a relevant topic and from my perception(which is based on typed word is by no means perfectly accurate), I think the reaction to this thread could have been handled better. I definitely felt a bit of Bob's frustration as I read the responses. My opinion may be based on complete ignorance but I would figure it is not completely ludicrous whether it differs from yours or not. I believe in talking to folks a certain way. Doesn't mean it is right but it shapes my opinions of the way I perceive the interactions between people. Needless to say, you are entitled to disagree and I do not take it personally.

I did explain it as I went, and Bob's been here long enough to know that we don't want to sensationalize the bite aspect, as that's not why we have these animals. No doubt he's also aware of how much governments have gotten involved in the reptile hobby & regulated and banned many animals. As a Florida resident he should also be aware many non-native scorpions have been banned in this state. We recently had Avic avics and P cancerides banned in Florida for years. We absolutely don't need to continually draw attention to venom and bites by piling one thread on top of another, especially when in between we have a guy with a Poec in his mouth. If you're curious and want to know about bite effects, read the bite reports or search online. Make some effort, don't keep fishing here for it and announce it in a public forum. He apparently didn't even bother to look at the thread the week before on the same topic. Do you understand that could be a source of frustration for some of us? As far as the ' prevention and remedy of bites': don't handle and there's an extremely low chance of you ever getting bit; there's no serums or anything to counteract the venoms, all that can be done is try to relieve the pain. No need to keep rehashing it, which only plays up the image of 'dangerous spider', which is exactly what we're trying to overcome. There's just no need to start threads on this every week. We're not a group of thrill seekers. Sorry if I don't always sugarcoat these things, but maybe you can feel my frustration. I don't want to lose my collection because other people couldn't see the consequences of their actions, whether it be reckless handling videos on online, or too much attention on bites. Both scare the public and some of those people contact their politicians. We're vulnerable, we have no clout. A swipe of a pen can end this hobby in any state, without a vote. Regardless of anyone's intentions, let's look at the big picture and not do things that may take this hobby down the wrong path.

 

[BobGrill]

I did explain it as I went, and Bob's been here long enough to know that we don't want to sensationalize the bite aspect, as that's not why we have these animals. No doubt he's also aware of how much governments have gotten involved in the reptile hobby & regulated and banned many animals. As a Florida resident he should also be aware many non-native scorpions have been banned in this state. We recently had Avic avics and P cancerides banned in Florida for years. We absolutely don't need to continually draw attention to venom and bites by piling one thread on top of another, especially when in between we have a guy with a Poec in his mouth. If you're curious and want to know about bite effects, read the bite reports or search online. Make some effort, don't keep fishing here for it and announce it in a public forum. He apparently didn't even bother to look at the thread the week before on the same topic. Do you understand that could be a source of frustration for some of us? As far as the ' prevention and remedy of bites': don't handle and there's an extremely low chance of you ever getting bit; there's no serums or anything to counteract the venoms, all that can be done is try to relieve the pain. No need to keep rehashing it, which only plays up the image of 'dangerous spider', which is exactly what we're trying to overcome. There's just no need to start threads on this every week. We're not a group of thrill seekers. Sorry if I don't always sugarcoat these things, but maybe you can feel my frustration. I don't want to lose my collection because other people couldn't see the consequences of their actions, whether it be reckless handling videos on online, or too much attention on bites. Both scare the public and some of those people contact their politicians. We're vulnerable, we have no clout. A swipe of a pen can end this hobby in any state, without a vote. Regardless of anyone's intentions, let's look at the big picture and not do things that may take this hobby down the wrong path.

You completely ignored my previous post. I think you're just blowing this whole thing out of proportion. Like I said I find toxciology in wildlife to be an interesting topic and I'm interested in looking at this from a scientific point of view. That is the last time I'm going to say that. I really feel like I'm wasting my time here because you can't seem to get that through your head.

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Wildenthusiast]

While I have followed this thread and taken my time to see it from both sides, I have to agree with Poec. Trust me, we all understand the fascination with all aspects of this hobby. Unfortunately, it's the ignorance of those who hold the power that costs us our rights. Anyone who doesn't have the understanding we do about these animals could find this thread and use it as leverage to portray the creatures in a negative light. That's the point we need to focus on. WE know that had led correctly, these are not dangerous animals to keep. Not everyone will be willing to take that into consideration. And in the worst case scenario, once action is taken, what we say has little effect (with the exception of those here possessing official credentials of expertise).

Again, I don't like taking sides. At the same time... "an ounce of prevention..."

 

[bscheidt1020]

Do you understand that could be a source of frustration for some of us?

I am pretty sure I said "I understand" several times in my posts. Maybe you skimmed them and that is why you are not seeing this objectively. I see both sides to this, and respect the intentions of Bob and Poec. My point was simply that we are on the same side here..we all care about this hobby. Those of you who have been in the hobby for years or decades certainly are bound to feel some frustrations and to take an interest in the political side of things. However, if a point is brought up that you deem not to be politically correct, I think you owe your fellow hobbyist some patience and due respect. To each their own, I just try not to lecture or talk down to people whenever possible. If you happen to be somebody who does not find the venom and it's effects on a person to be a point of interest, I do not know what to say….it is pretty interesting to me. Just because somebody asks a question does not mean they are focusing on the wrong thing…it means that as part of their interest and research, this is a topic of interest…amongst others I am sure. Like I stated in my first post on this thread, lessons are learned and it has become clear to me and probably everybody that has read this thread, that this is a topic for private conversation and not with certain people. Whether they are not interested in it, despise the topics possible ramifications, and/or can't relate to another person that has a different interest than they do long enough to hold a conversation, it is not worth talking about. Hopefully in a few decades after I have been in the hobby a long time, I can become salty and let my frustrations overwhelm my manners. There is a difference between "not sugar coating" and "being blatantly condescending and rude." Not what you say, it's how you say it.

 

[BobGrill]

Well I've said about all I can say here. However I'm not going to be told by someone what I can and can't talk about. I'm just not seeing things the same way as you poec, and I feel you are really overreacting. Anyway I'm done here.

 

[Poec54]

If you happen to be somebody who does not find the venom and it's effects on a person to be a point of interest, I do not know what to say….it is pretty interesting to me. Just because somebody asks a question does not mean they are focusing on the wrong thing…it means that as part of their interest and research, this is a topic of interest…amongst others I am sure...this is a topic for private conversation and not with certain people. Whether they are not interested in it, despise the topics possible ramifications, and/or can't relate to another person that has a different interest than they do long enough to hold a conversation, it is not worth talking about. Hopefully in a few decades after I have been in the hobby a long time, I can become salty and let my frustrations overwhelm my manners. There is a difference between "not sugar coating" and "being blatantly condescending and rude." Not what you say, it's how you say it.

I'm interested in venom and it's effects, but this not a research site, what's here is anecdotal information which is of little use in any kind of study. There's better places to find that, as the same bite thread just before this proved. If we were back in the political climate of a few decades ago, I wouldn't care who handled and who got bit. Personally, I'd think it would be fitting if people who do reckless stunts with them got bitten. But with today's politicians, lawyers, and anti-exotic pet groups, we have to walk a fine line. We're under a microscope. It's not just about a person and their 'right' to do whatever they want. You have to think beyond yourself. Things go viral in a matter of hours, and if circumstances fall a certain way, one high profile incident can take down the hobby. I don't think anyone has the 'right' to take that risk on behalf of everyone else. Let's downplay the bite aspect. If you want to know more about venoms and bites, fine, do some online research, do it low key. There's no benefit in one public thread after another on it on the same forum. Halfway thru this thread, Bob's already said that with the other recent thread on the same topic, he shouldn't have even started this one, and as Viper69 pointed, he's not going to get anything 'scientific' here on that. It's subjective and conjecture, but that's mostly what's available on the subject. These are mostly tropical animals from remote areas, often in third world countries. They are of little medical significance in their native countries (especially compared to venomous snakes) so no one's putting much effort into studying their venoms. They have much bigger concerns in those areas, like feeding their populations. Hopefully there won't be enough bites by captive spiders to accumulate much data. This has all been discussed recently and was all known up front; there's no need to keep making new threads on it. Let it rest.

 

[cold blood]

My point was simply that we are on the same side here..we all care about this hobby. Those of you who have been in the hobby for years or decades certainly are bound to feel some frustrations and to take an interest in the political side of things.

Just because we all own t's does not put us on the same side necessarily.

I'll put this in a more common perspective worldwide. Dogs are owned all over the world. Many, if not most, are responsible, good owners who love and take care of their dogs both mentally and physically as well as medically. Other dog owners choose to neglect, abuse, tease or even fight them against all the best interests of the dog(s). I spent time training dogs and make up some of my income by walking dogs. I have a ton of dog experience and treat mine very well, as many others whom I consider "on my side" do as well. I would never in a million years put myself on the same side, or "in it with me", as an abuser, neglecter or dogfighter just because we all own or in some way enjoy the same animals.

Same can be said for owners of any animals, t's included. The poec in the mouth pic that's been a hot topic lately is a perfect example of someone in the hobby that I would not consider on "the same side" as myself, and I am sure there are many who would agree. Many in this hobby either are in it for the wrong reason or just are not treating them properly, again we hear it all the time. Just like dogs, there are both good and bad people involved in the hobby that have very different intentions.

Now I am certainly not saying Bob and poec are not on the same side, they almost certainly are ultimately, as I don't believe bob had any ill intentions at all. But I do see where poec is coming from, as he is just looking at the bigger picture and is trying to open eyes as to ways to avoid negative publicity for the hobby. I wish people didn't need to have everything sugarcoated in order to objectively read something.

This whole debacle could have likely been avoided if Bob would have just placed his post within last weeks nearly identical thread, instead of attempting to start the same conversation and hoping for magically new or different results.

 

[bscheidt1020]

Just because we all own t's does not put us on the same side necessarily.

I'll put this in a more common perspective worldwide. Dogs are owned all over the world. Many, if not most, are responsible, good owners who love and take care of their dogs both mentally and physically as well as medically. Other dog owners choose to neglect, abuse, tease or even fight them against all the best interests of the dog(s). I spent time training dogs and make up some of my income by walking dogs. I have a ton of dog experience and treat mine very well, as many others whom I consider "on my side" do as well. I would never in a million years put myself on the same side, or "in it with me", as an abuser, neglecter or dogfighter just because we all own or in some way enjoy the same animals.

Same can be said for owners of any animals, t's included. The poec in the mouth pic that's been a hot topic lately is a perfect example of someone in the hobby that I would not consider on "the same side" as myself, and I am sure there are many who would agree. Many in this hobby either are in it for the wrong reason or just are not treating them properly, again we hear it all the time. Just like dogs, there are both good and bad people involved in the hobby that have very different intentions.

Now I am certainly not saying Bob and poec are not on the same side, they almost certainly are ultimately, as I don't believe bob had any ill intentions at all. But I do see where poec is coming from, as he is just looking at the bigger picture and is trying to open eyes as to ways to avoid negative publicity for the hobby. I wish people didn't need to have everything sugarcoated in order to objectively read something.

This whole debacle could have likely been avoided if Bob would have just placed his post within last weeks nearly identical thread, instead of attempting to start the same conversation and hoping for magically new or different results.

This thread is beat…I made it clear what I was stating and I said it directly and respectfully. You call it "not sugarcoating" and I call it borderline rude and unnecessarily condescending. I am not the type to pull punches or give two rats heinies if someone don't know how to act. I will call a spade a spade however and folks would be better off watching their tongues when they speak to one another. Otherwise someone may get the wrong impression. My interactions with those on this site have been pretty brief but I know Poec means well, and he has been more than willing to answer questions of mine and entertain my curiosity about the hobby we share. His point was valid, well intended, and heard loud and clear. I don't have a problem with him or you or anybody else. I simply thought he could have been less abrupt towards a Bob who was asking an honest question with good intentions that could be construed as a mistake.

 

[viper69]

There's nothing wrong with talking about the scientific value of toxins in biomedical research as it relates to the development of human therapeutics. Psalmo is one such genus that produces a peptide and one its targets is ACTIVELY being researched by quite a few different pharma companies currently as a RESULT of basic/applied research initially conducted in 2000.

 

[Pociemon]

When i see what has happened in this thread i feel like saying "don't argue with idiots they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience", i just dont know who are the idiots ;-)

I just know that we also in Europe have troubles with getting some of our animals banned, so i hope we as a hobby can stay clear of to many accidents, wether that will be a bite, or a T in the mouth. I dont think a thread like this hurts the hobby whatsoever though. I think it is a result of bites reported at hospitals and animals getting loose why these things happens, and what will get peoples attention is when a T blondi hisses at mrs Jackson when she is at HER toilet and not from inisde here own enclosure at the apartment next door. But maybe this thread can help clear the air so we can go on to other things!

 

[Poec54]

I simply thought he could have been less abrupt towards a Bob who was asking an honest question with good intentions that could be construed as a mistake.

As a newbie, a bit of background for you: This isn't the first time we've been thru something like this with Bob. If it was, I would have been more patient.

 

[BobGrill]

As a newbie, a bit of background for you: This isn't the first time we've been thru something like this with Bob. If it was, I would have been more patient.

I'm really tired of you making me out to be the bad guy here. Can you do me a favor and if my post bothers you just ignore it? Just don't respond to anymore of my posts.

 

[Poec54]

I'm really tired of you making me out to be the bad guy here. Can you do me a favor and if my post bothers you just ignore it? Just don't respond to anymore of my posts.

No one's making you out to be 'the bad guy.' I just asked you early on to please stop this thread for a variety of reasons, and you've dug in your heels and been fighting I'm not sure what or why. You've said yourself that you shouldn't have started this redundant thread. All I've been asking is for you to let it go, and explained why. If you choose to post in public forums, people have the right to question what you say. We both have the best interests of the hobby at heart, I'm just saying that this topic is getting worn out and it's not producing anything worthwhile. Why not talk about something else, lord knows there's enough about these animals that's interesting.

 

[bscheidt1020]

---------- Post added 04-11-2014 at 10:47 PM ----------

[/COLOR]

When i see what has happened in this thread i feel like saying "don't argue with idiots they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience", i just dont know who are the idiots ;-)

I just know that we also in Europe have troubles with getting some of our animals banned, so i hope we as a hobby can stay clear of to many accidents, wether that will be a bite, or a T in the mouth. I dont think a thread like this hurts the hobby whatsoever though. I think it is a result of bites reported at hospitals and animals getting loose why these things happens, and what will get peoples attention is when a T blondi hisses at mrs Jackson when she is at HER toilet and not from inisde here own enclosure at the apartment next door. But maybe this thread can help clear the air so we can go on to other things!

Dang man I hope i am not the idiot. Haha, I agree with your take on the thread. Seems to be blown up a bit…good points on both sides but I think it definitely got a little silly. Stubborn mules on both sides, everybody means well I do think.

Both my Nhandus molted again today. All 13 doing really well…waiting on molts from B Boehmi and G Pulchripes. Hmac fed for the first time after her molt and knocked down two super worms in two days. :3: