Need advanced Gravid female Emperor advice,

[krenemetcalfe]

This is my third gravid female to have babies, but something is very strange. I have a colony of Emperors. She had one baby, and has stalled? for lack of a better word. That baby she has not taken on her back, and I gently laid in a tiny cup with moist substrate in her separate birthing enclosure. It is still alive and I keep misting them. She is HUGE, and there are not anymore babies being born. I am worried. Also, this one...it seems off. Why would she have one, and then not continue?

 

[Diao]

I've had this happen with Centruroides before, where the mother would give birth to a small percentage of the brood containing a few young that didn't survive, along with a couple of completely undeveloped eggs. She then gave full birth not too long after that had mostly live young, but among them were also a few of the undeveloped eggs and a couple scorplings that had issues that did not survive.

I haven't experienced this with any Scorpionidae species, but fingers crossed its something similar in that it was her way of trying to expel the young that weren't going to survive so her body is only expending its precious resources to develop the young that will survive. I can't guarantee this is the case, but it sounds similar. Have you tried placing the scorpling on her back yourself?

Thank you for sharing, please keep us updated!

 

[darkness975]

Something could have stressed the mother which affected the brood. Did she give birth in the enclosure with the others?

 

[krenemetcalfe]

I've had this happen with Centruroides before, where the mother would give birth to a small percentage of the brood containing a few young that didn't survive, along with a couple of completely undeveloped eggs. She then gave full birth not too long after that had mostly live young, but among them were also a few of the undeveloped eggs and a couple scorplings that had issues that did not survive.

I haven't experienced this with any Scorpionidae species, but fingers crossed its something similar in that it was her way of trying to expel the young that weren't going to survive so her body is only expending its precious resources to develop the young that will survive. I can't guarantee this is the case, but it sounds similar. Have you tried placing the scorpling on her back yourself?

Thank you for sharing, please keep us updated!

Thank you! I did try placing the scorpling on her back. It couldn't hold on like other babies. And its pincers seems to be too freely flowing. I can't describe it. They were almost acting like antenna . I tried a few times and she made no effort to keep "him" I don't know which of course, there. She just let him fall of and left him any time. I put him in a little cup and kept him warm and misted. He was doing ok until yesterday evening. Little one just wasn't meant to be, I guess. I am hoping your thought is right and she somehow knew, and this one and the other that came with, but was dead on arrival were just being culled out as needed? It's sad.

The other one who just had her babies, ate one single baby, and I suspected it was for the same reason. Their Mom culled two, but would not eat them, she just pinched them and killed them, and I felt like she knew something I didn't. She was still very protective over their little bodies for a bit. She needed time with them. She was an amazing mom. She would go around each day and count out her babies. Make sure she had the right amount. She took such good care. I knew she did it for a reason. It seemed like it bothered her. So they must all have their own way of dealing with it.

 

[MorbidArachnid]

Thank you! I did try placing the scorpling on her back. It couldn't hold on like other babies. And its pincers seems to be too freely flowing. I can't describe it. They were almost acting like antenna . I tried a few times and she made no effort to keep "him" I don't know which of course, there. She just let him fall of and left him any time. I put him in a little cup and kept him warm and misted. He was doing ok until yesterday evening. Little one just wasn't meant to be, I guess. I am hoping your thought is right and she somehow knew, and this one and the other that came with, but was dead on arrival were just being culled out as needed? It's sad.

The other one who just had her babies, ate one single baby, and I suspected it was for the same reason. Their Mom culled two, but would not eat them, she just pinched them and killed them, and I felt like she knew something I didn't. She was still very protective over their little bodies for a bit. She needed time with them. She was an amazing mom. She would go around each day and count out her babies. Make sure she had the right amount. She took such good care. I knew she did it for a reason. It seemed like it bothered her. So they must all have their own way of dealing with it.

I'm sorry that one of the babies didn't make it, once they fall off their mom it's difficult to keep them alive until 2i. The success stories I've heard of incubating the babies yourself usually involve a bit more time on the mom's back, with the mother unexpectedly dying before the babies had a chance to make it all the way to their first molt. If they fall off right away, it's unlikely they'll survive. I also don't mean to be a downer here, but you seem to be anthropomorphizing your animals quite a lot. Emperor scorpions, like Asian Forest Scorpions, are only incidentally able to be kept communally and there's always a risk of cannibalism. I would never put gravid females together, as the presence of other scorpions would cause them to become very stressed and make them more likely to cull their litters. It seems like you were lucky with the first mom, but I would heavily suggest separating them in the future. Also it's really better to not put undue emotions and reasoning on them, they do show some maternal instincts at younger instars but can still cannibalize their young, especially as they get older. She was not "counting them", and they don't get bothered when they lose a brood. It might seem harmless, but anthropomorphizing them to that extent usually leads to poor husbandry, for example by keeping them together because you believe she likes being around her babies and the other emperors when in reality it's only making her more stressed.

 

[krenemetcalfe]

I'm sorry that one of the babies didn't make it, once they fall off their mom it's difficult to keep them alive until 2i. The success stories I've heard of incubating the babies yourself usually involve a bit more time on the mom's back, with the mother unexpectedly dying before the babies had a chance to make it all the way to their first molt. If they fall off right away, it's unlikely they'll survive. I also don't mean to be a downer here, but you seem to be anthropomorphizing your animals quite a lot. Emperor scorpions, like Asian Forest Scorpions, are only incidentally able to be kept communally and there's always a risk of cannibalism. I would never put gravid females together, as the presence of other scorpions would cause them to become very stressed and make them more likely to cull their litters. It seems like you were lucky with the first mom, but I would heavily suggest separating them in the future. Also it's really better to not put undue emotions and reasoning on them, they do show some maternal instincts at younger instars but can still cannibalize their young, especially as they get older. She was not "counting them", and they don't get bothered when they lose a brood. It might seem harmless, but anthropomorphizing them to that extent usually leads to poor husbandry, for example by keeping them together because you believe she likes being around her babies and the other emperors when in reality it's only making her more stressed.

I would suggest doing updated research on what biologists are learning on inverts. The term anthropomorphizing animals to try to negate that insects and animals are more advanced than humans have previously given credit for is outdated. The top biologists in the world are ahead of this now. It is likely not me who is not understanding them.

I am not sorry, nor putting undue emotions or reasoning on them. Emperor scorpions are communal by nature. My communal have lots of space and choose to stick together. They sleep huddled, and even when she had this baby unexpectedly, they did not attack it. Further, I separate the mothers to have their babies to raise them stress free. The mom who just had hers birthed and is raising them in a separate enclosure. I think it is funny when people use the term anthropomorphizing like animals need to be like us. I respect them exactly as they are. The only time I witnessed the original mother stressed was when her babies were away from her. It isn't putting my emotions on them. It was clear.

 

[MorbidArachnid]

I would suggest doing updated research on what biologists are learning on inverts. The term anthropomorphizing animals to try to negate that insects and animals are more advanced than humans have previously given credit for is outdated. The top biologists in the world are ahead of this now. It is likely not me who is not understanding them.

I am not sorry, nor putting undue emotions or reasoning on them. Emperor scorpions are communal by nature. My communal have lots of space and choose to stick together. They sleep huddled, and even when she had this baby unexpectedly, they did not attack it. Further, I separate the mothers to have their babies to raise them stress free. The mom who just had hers birthed and is raising them in a separate enclosure. I think it is funny when people use the term anthropomorphizing like animals need to be like us. I respect them exactly as they are. The only time I witnessed the original mother stressed was when her babies were away from her. It isn't putting my emotions on them. It was clear.

I would like to see the research you have to back this up by "top biologists", I do agree that they are more than purely instinctual or biological machines, but as of yet we don't have any evidence of them experiencing emotions like the ones you are describing. They can't count. And while Pandinus and Heterometrus are more tolerant of others of their species, most of them being found in groups in the wild are family groups, they do show more tolerance to their young than a lot of other scorpions, but I still would not call them communal because they don't benefit from being kept together unless you're specifically talking about the extra care and protection the mother gives her babies. They are not "communal by nature", they're tolerant of living with their offspring. Unrelated individuals do not care or benefit from being around each other.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ndinus_imperator_Koch_Scorpiones_Scorpionidae

Here's an interesting paper I found on brood care in Emperor scorpions. I'm not disputing the fact that the mother provides protection and food for her young, that has been well documented. I said "anthropomorphizing" because you're specifically putting human emotions on them that they've never been shown to have, by saying they "count" their babies or "It seemed like it bothered her". Again, I'd like to see what papers you've been reading that suggest they have the capacity to "miss" their offspring or count them.

 

[Dry Desert]

I would suggest doing updated research on what biologists are learning on inverts. The term anthropomorphizing animals to try to negate that insects and animals are more advanced than humans have previously given credit for is outdated. The top biologists in the world are ahead of this now. It is likely not me who is not understanding them.

I am not sorry, nor putting undue emotions or reasoning on them. Emperor scorpions are communal by nature. My communal have lots of space and choose to stick together. They sleep huddled, and even when she had this baby unexpectedly, they did not attack it. Further, I separate the mothers to have their babies to raise them stress free. The mom who just had hers birthed and is raising them in a separate enclosure. I think it is funny when people use the term anthropomorphizing like animals need to be like us. I respect them exactly as they are. The only time I witnessed the original mother stressed was when her babies were away from her. It isn't putting my emotions on them. It was clear.

No scorpion is communal.

There is just varying degrees of TOLERANCE..

I've kept many, many Pandinus, some tolerate each other, some fight on occasions, some canabilize, no hard and fast rules.

The only rules are NOT to keep checking and fussing over them as that will definitely cause stree for the mother.

Also regarding you trying to place newborn, several times, onto the mother's back.
I suggest it's YOU that requires further research, especially in basic care and breeding scorpions.