Phyrnus Whitei questions

[Purplepuffball]

I plan on getting Phyrnus Whitei and have a few questions about its husbandry,
1. Is it as communal as species such as phrynus marginemaculatus.
2. Regarding breeding, what are the ideal conditions?
3. How long does it take for the species to reach sexual maturity, (What is its growth rate?)
4. How large does it really grow?
- The information I got varied, some said "4 inch leg span" which is quite ambiguous and others said "1 to 2 inches" is anyone able to quantify the size by body length and legs pan excluding the feelers?
5. Misidentification- Tailless whip scorpions especially the phyrnus can often be mislabeled- I got sold phrynus operculatus under the name phrynus marginemaculatus, and I also know within the species there are many "hobby forms" How can I verify the species?
6. Looking through other threads I gathered that they are more stationary and don't "wander" as much. Because of that, would a 4*4*8 acrylic terrarium work, or does the size need to be slightly larger?
7. General Husbandry advice?
8. Kinda off-topic, but while searching through classifieds I saw Canadian vendors that sell some less available species. Is it possible to ship across the border?

 

[that1ocelot]

I plan on getting Phyrnus Whitei and have a few questions about its husbandry,
1. Is it as communal as species such as phrynus marginemaculatus.
2. Regarding breeding, what are the ideal conditions?
3. How long does it take for the species to reach sexual maturity, (What is its growth rate?)
4. How large does it really grow?
- The information I got varied, some said "4 inch leg span" which is quite ambiguous and others said "1 to 2 inches" is anyone able to quantify the size by body length and legs pan excluding the feelers?
5. Misidentification- Tailless whip scorpions especially the phyrnus can often be mislabeled- I got sold phrynus operculatus under the name phrynus marginemaculatus, and I also know within the species there are many "hobby forms" How can I verify the species?
6. Looking through other threads I gathered that they are more stationary and don't "wander" as much. Because of that, would a 4*4*8 acrylic terrarium work, or does the size need to be slightly larger?
7. General Husbandry advice?
8. Kinda off-topic, but while searching through classifieds I saw Canadian vendors that sell some less available species. Is it possible to ship across the border?

1. Not communal.
2. General husbandry conditions - introduce male to the female for a few days. In a perfect world the male will leave a spermatophore and the female will pick it up. Separate them after this occurs.
3. Unsure. I would say they are sexually mature within the first year of life. I've seen very small Whitei who are gravid.
4. I would say an animal would fit comfortably in your hand when full grown. They are certainly more compact. Body size similar to that of a Canadian "toonie". Very leggy - your 4 inch wide enclosure would not be enough.
5. Amblypygi.org would be your best bet, or asking here. Phrynus Whitei in particular have many different variations due to locality. Asking an expert here would be your best bet or visually trying on Amblypygi.org.
6. They are certainly compact and don't wander, but they need enough space to stretch their legs when they molt. you'd certainly want it wider. A popular enclosure is putting them in large cereal holders with cork or Styrofoam background.
7. Very, very easy. Temperature 18c - 30 or so Celsius. Whitei in particular are pretty hardy. Give them lots of vertical space and a place to molt and you're golden. No need to clutter and no need for lights. The BIG thing with all popular pet ambly is moisture. Heavily dampen the substrate as humidity is a huge thing for them. As well, I like keeping springtails in their substrate but they tolerate mold very very well.
8. Unsure. I wouldn't recommend it though, importing that way would likely get you a dead animal. I honestly think most vendors here would be unwilling to ship to the US even if they could.

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

Agree with all the above. I keep my adult P. whitei in a container that's about 6" x 8" x 12". The tallest Rubbermaid Brilliance container, to be specific. Just cut a 1x1.5" hole in the top and cover it with a wire mesh screen, add an inch or two of moist substrate on the bottom, and line one side with styrofoam. They're very content in this kind of setup and it's easy to monitor their condition. Of course you can use cork bark if you prefer, but they like the styrofoam and it's easier to cut a piece that fits well and doesn't make hiding places for prey.

My bedroom fluctuates between about 18ºC and 30ºC (about 65F to 85F) depending on the season, and it doesn't seem to make any observable difference to their behaviour. P. whitei are also hardier to moisture fluctuations than some other species.

I know that at least one Canadian vendor ships to the US, but there is some risk. Since you're in New York state, it would be perhaps better to drive up and purchase one and drive it across the border. I believe there's an inspection site at the Niagara crossing that can handle exotic animal inspections, and P. whitei are perfectly legal to transport across the border as pets.

Here's my adult P. whitei in the aforementioned enclosure, so you can get a sense of her size.

 

[Purplepuffball]

Thanks so much @Albireo Wulfbooper and @that1ocelot for the advice! I ordered 5 juveniles just now and can't wait to watch them grow

One last question, since they are cannibalistic, how would pairing go? Would it be like ts, where it's in and out, or does the male and female hang around together for a while? Second, what is the optimal size to start breeding? I don't want to tax the animal's health just because it is "able" to reproduce. Finally, when does the male reach sexual maturity? I heard the females are sexually mature quite early, does the same apply to males?

 

[that1ocelot]

One last question, since they are cannibalistic, how would pairing go? Would it be like ts, where it's in and out, or does the male and female hang around together for a while? Second, what is the optimal size to start breeding? I don't want to tax the animal's health just because it is "able" to reproduce. Finally, when does the male reach sexual maturity? I heard the females are sexually mature quite early, does the same apply to males?

I'm not positive on your last point as I've never bread. I've got a group of Whitei right now who I'm waiting for to molt.

Judging by my Whitei I've had since i2 or i3, I'd say they generally become sexually mature at around a year or maybe slightly less. I'd assume it's the same for male/female but again, I'm not sure. I don't know if there's an obvious answer like with T's.

Whitei in general seems faster growing than many other species, such as Euphrynichus Bacilifer which is also fairly popular.

I think from the standpoint of physicality if they're ready to breed they are ready to breed saying that, you'd want to wait until they're in the best shape before introducing to breeding. Make sure they're fat and have recently molted.

All the info I've seen is keep them together no more than 10 days. The babies and mom however will be more tolerant.

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

You also want to watch them very carefully during the introduction - even a not-hungry amblypygi may decide to attack if it's not in the mood for love.

 

[Purplepuffball]

@Albireo Wulfbooper one last thing, I heard that damon medius is not communal, and technically "there are no truly communal amplygids", but I am willing to test my luck, (I have a phrynus marginemaculatus of 13 not cannibalize for an entire 18 month period, so I'm kind of doubtful of all this non-communal anecdote and want to try my luck with Damon variegatus. Are these more communal than medius? Its also a newly arrived male-female pair. Do you think the stress of the shipment and journey will make them more prone to cannibalization?

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

@Albireo Wulfbooper one last thing, I heard that damon medius is not communal, and technically "there are no truly communal amplygids", but I am willing to test my luck, (I have a phrynus marginemaculatus of 13 not cannibalize for an entire 18 month period, so I'm kind of doubtful of all this non-communal anecdote and want to try my luck with Damon variegatus. Are these more communal than medius? Its also a newly arrived male-female pair. Do you think the stress of the shipment and journey will make them more prone to cannibalization?

Phrynus marginemaculatus are a very rare example of amblypygi that typically coexist quite peacefully. Many people keep them communally with only occasional cannibalism.

Try this with Damon and you will have one extremely fat amblypygi.

 

[Purplepuffball]

Phrynus marginemaculatus are a very rare example of amblypygi that typically coexist quite peacefully. Many people keep them communally with only occasional cannibalism.

Try this with Damon and you will have one extremely fat amblypygi.

I heard some Damon species were communal? But good to know I'll separate them right now. Its better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

I heard some Damon species were communal? But good to know I'll separate them right now. Its better to be safe than sorry.

Perhaps there are some communal Damon that I’m unfamiliar with. If you’re willing to experiment with very expensive feeder amblypygi, well…they’re your animals. Personally I would not attempt a communal with a species that does not have extensive documentation of successful communal living in captivity.

Edit: apparently Damon broods can be kept together with minimal cannibalism (which is not the same as no cannibalism), but I would not risk putting together two adults other than for a supervised mating.

 

[Purplepuffball]

@Albireo Wulfbooper I hate to bother you so much but I have one last concern. My tailless whip scorpions arrived today, and they are far from healthy. One, in particular, has some sort of idek. Here is a photo. Is the weird things on it of concern? If so, how should I treat it, or is it too late.

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

The white stuff? Not likely anything to be concerned about - mould isn’t a problem for them, and it’s likely just poop or dirt anyway. Give them plenty of moisture, and a quiet, dark, stress-free environment for a couple of weeks to get settled in. Probably best not to attempt feeding for the first week or so. Just let them rest and recover.

 

[Purplepuffball]

The white stuff? Not likely anything to be concerned about. Give them plenty of moisture, and a quiet, dark, stress-free environment for a couple of weeks to get settled in. Probably best not to attempt feeding for the first week or so. Just let them rest and recover.

Tysm for the advice

 

[WhyamIlikethis]

Tysm for the advice

I know this was quite a while ago but how are they doing? are they still even alive? did you ever end up breeding them?

 

[Purplepuffball]

I know this was quite a while ago but how are they doing? are they still even alive? did you ever end up breeding them?

All are alive, I have a 2.2 group now and have paired two of them over the fall and saw spermatophores get deposited- just waiting for the extra long gestation period to finish.

 

[WhyamIlikethis]

All are alive, I have a 2.2 group now and have paired two of them over the fall and saw spermatophores get deposited- just waiting for the extra long gestation period to finish.

That's awesome! I didn't think you'd see my comment lol.

 

[Purplepuffball]

That's awesome! I didn't think you'd see my comment lol.

I check AB from time to time. I have also tried breeding other species- including phrynus marginemaculatus (successful) phrynus maesi (successful) and paraphrynus cubensis (which also worked out) the only species I really struggled with was phrynus whitei and for the life of me my 2.4 group would not deposit spermatophore nor drop eggs...

 

[WhyamIlikethis]

the only species I really struggled with was phrynus whitei and for the life of me my 2.4 group would not deposit spermatophore nor drop eggs...

Dang! I'm sorry about that. I was actually planning on breeding them.
did you have any problems with cannibalism in any of the species you have bred/tried to breed?

 

[Purplepuffball]

Dang! I'm sorry about that. I was actually planning on breeding them.
did you have any problems with cannibalism in any of the species you have bred/tried to breed?

Yes cubensis, maesi, and marginemaculatus had a decent propensity towards cannibalism. Ironically whitei seemed to do the best together in pairs.