Spider Bite

[becca81]

Cirith, here's the thread I think you are referring to:

Tarantula Venom

 

[DanHalen]

I'm not an expert by any means, however, it just strikes me as odd that a person can have an allergy to sunlight, but not tarantula venom :?

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Cirith, here's the thread I think you are referring to:

Tarantula Venom

Hey, thank's a lot! It sure is a long thread. (Not read it all yet but will - best to "know" and be prepared )

Should have rememberd this thread but I guess one can't always rembember everything. I sent Lelle a greeting, let's just hope I'm not wasting his time with my request for checking out this thread

 

[Ewok]

I've read in some book where the venom of certain tarantulas can cause reoccurring pain and other symptoms weeks after the bite.
Like someone else said, the venom is a foriegn substance in your body, so your body will react in some way to it.

 

[Thoth]

A body reacting to a venom and an allergic response are two very different things. An allergic response is an very specific immune cascade involving IgE, histamines, various cytokines et c. Like Lelle stated in the other thread, size of the protein/peptide is a key factor in illiciting an immune response(i.e. allergic reaction). In the lab the only way to generate antibodies for a particular peptide would be to conjugate it to a larger protein (albumin) then injected into the animal. Tarantula venom is known to be a mix of small peptides and various organic molecules. Also it is extremely rare for a non protein substance to cause an immune response (the reason a person never develops immunity to salmonella or E.coli food poisoning is because the endotoxin that causes it is lipid sacchride not a protein). So it is very likely that it is near impossible to be allergic to spider venom.

DanHalen when a person is "allergic to the sun" the are not allergic to the sun per se but rather the proteins their bodies produce when exposed to the sun.

Sorry for the boring science lesson

<edited for clarity>

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Sorry for the boring science lesson

No way man!! That was very interesting!! :worship: If you can go more into detail or have anything to add, please do so! I'd love to "hear" it!

 

[DaleGribble]

A body reacting to a venom and an allergic response are two very different things. An allergic response is an very specific immune cascade involving IgE, histamines, various cytokines et c. Like Lelle stated in the other thread, size of the protein/peptide is a key factor in illiciting an immune response(i.e. allergic reaction). In the lab the only way to generate antibodies for a particular peptide would be to conjugate it to a larger protein (albumin) then injected into the animal. Spider venom is known to be a mix of small peptides and various organic molecules. Also it is extremely rare for a non protein substance to cause an immune response (the reason a person never develops immunity to salmonella or E.coli food poisoning is because the endotoxin that causes it is lipid sacchride not a protein). So it is very likely that it is impossible to be allergic to spider venom.

DanHalen when a person is "allergic to the sun" the are not allergic to the sun per se but rather the proteins their bodies produce when exposed to the sun.

Sorry for the boring science lesson

Venom varies in so many ways, between speices and perhaps between localitites (as in snakes), how can we know if some venoms haven't developed proteins? If it is full of short-chain peptides then it is only a few bonds away from a protein. Perhaps, evolution-wise, it maybe more advantageous to create a protein-based venom, like bees

 

[Thoth]

More info than you probably want

Venom varies in so many ways, between speices and perhaps between localitites (as in snakes), how can we know if some venoms haven't developed proteins? If it is full of short-chain peptides then it is only a few bonds away from a protein. Perhaps, evolution-wise, it maybe more advantageous to create a protein-based venom, like bees

While, yes a bunch of peptides are few bonds away from becoming full length protein; its like saying if my aunt was a man she would be my uncle. Meaning while true, thats not the case.
Escoubas et al. Toxicon. 2004 Apr;43(5):555-74 characterize the venom of 55 different species of tarantulas and basically find that while there are different all of strengths and effects are based on 33 different peptides in differing amounts in addition to various organic molecules which probably cause the inflammation. So we know that at least for 55 species there are no proteins in their venom, its probably safe to presume there isn't any in other species.
These peptides basically inhibit ion channels, which would account for the muscle cramping and numbness people have reported feeling. Ion channels are mainly involved in neuromuscular activity, so potentially a large dose (much more that be delivered in a few t bites) can potentially kill you. Snake and bee venom though have enzymatic activity and as a result are full length proteins. I believe though maybe wrong that snakes from different localities usually comprise different subspecies accounting for the differet venom compositions. I remember from biochem that the eastern diamond back and I think indian cobra contain a rather nasty enzyme Phospholipase A(1 or 2 can't remember) which breaks down the lipids in your cell membranes causing them to act like detergents which in turn then rupture your blood cells. Snake venom evolved to have the enzymatic activity to aid in digestion because they swallow whole prey, couldn't hazard an educated guess why bee venom has enzymatic activity. T's don't need this enzymatic activity because they "chew up" their food, they just need something to stop it dead in their tracks.

Cirith you asked for it. ;P

 

[Cirith Ungol]

And I stand behind you all the way man! :clap: Thanks!

 

[Waryur]

anyone else with me when i say:

Game, set match Thoth?

 

[Thoth]

Thank you. Being a nerd finally pays off.

 

[Windchaser]

Pokies, Heteroscodra, Pterinochilus (OBT's i know, not sure about lugardis and all), and Stromatopelma are all thought to have possible medically significant venom....for future reference

The above species have more potent venom, but they are not medically significant. To be medically significant, it has to pose a serious and real threat to a person's health. There is no documentation of any serious (loss of life or limb) medical problems associated with a tarantula bite.

 

[Windchaser]

Thank you. Being a nerd finally pays off.

And thank you for some great information. :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Good to know about that definition! Thanks!

 

[cloud711]

does size make a difference on how strong the venom is? i mean the potency of the venom is it the same for adults and juvies? :?

 

[Bearskin10]

does size make a difference on how strong the venom is? i mean the potency of the venom is it the same for adults and juvies? :?

If I am not mistaken size makes a difference only in the amount of venom that can be injected into you so a larger T will have more of an effect not because it is stronger but because there is more of it... Greg

 

[arachnopimpess]

my advice.... if you have to poke it use a long stick!

 

[Captante]

I agree, that was very informative & I enjoyed it.. thanks!

 

[DaleGribble]

The above species have more potent venom, but they are not medically significant. To be medically significant, it has to pose a serious and real threat to a person's health. There is no documentation of any serious (loss of life or limb) medical problems associated with a tarantula bite.

I think the standard for whether a bite is medically significant is whether the bite can produce systemic effects, and not just localized pain and swelling.
If the bite from one spider produces a bee-sting like reaction, and the bite from another produces that in addition to muscle cramps and dizziness days later are totally different.
I am sure there are some people out there that can confirm this difference


Oh, also I would like to hear some of the venomous keepers out there to chime in on whether venom varies within localities of the same species. I have heard and read this alot but cannot cite a specific text now.
check the non-invert board i will post this there.

 

[TheDarkFinder]

Also it is extremely rare for a non protein substance to cause an immune response (the reason a person never develops immunity to salmonella or E.coli food poisoning is because the endotoxin that causes it is lipid sacchride not a protein).

Dragging up this thread.

It is not extremely rare for a non protein substance to cause a immune response. People are allergic to plastics, metals alloys, dust. The problem here is that you are simplify it. What about the people that are allergic to the color red? Yes there are people that react if the pigement red comes in contact with there skin, has to be a certian pigement. What about allergic reactions to chemicals. My wife will break out in hives when she uses a certain polish remover. This is one brand, she does not react to the active ingredent, but the fragrance in this one brand.

The problem with a allergic reaction is that you can not pin it into one "idea." A person can drink milk for 20 years then at one point the body reacts to milk, no reason just does.

Any foreigen substance can cause a allerigic reaction in a person, period. Protien based reactions are the majority, but not the only ones. The deadly ones are the foregin substance. I had a math teacher that taught on a chalk board for 40 years. One day walk into class got about 10 mins of writing on the board, went down, choking. They got him to the hospital and relised it was a reaction to the chalk. After 40 years his body had enough. Unforuntally for him it was the silcicates in the chalk, they exposed him to the chalk and happened again.

The point is that any bite, from dog, cat or tarantula can have a allergic reaction, especally if exposed beforehand.

The chances that there will be a reaction to a tarantula bite are as rare as a bee sting. About 2 in 300.

But consider there is less then 30,000,000 people exposed to tarantulas. Then consider less then 2% are ever bitten. So about 600,000 people are bitten. So, 4,020 people have a allergic reaction. Half are mild and do not require medical attention. So 2,020 are consider severe. Out of the severe ones, keeping with beestings again, 150 out of 2 million people, .000075% result in death. So,a .15%, that is less then 1/7 of 1%, chance that you are going to die from a tarantula bite.

I will take those odds.
Looking through the bite reports I see a few that showed signs of a allergic reaction. Remember dizzyness, vomiting, and headaches are a signs of severe reaction. If it happens to one person and not the others it is an allergic reaction.

But remember that less then 1/7 of one percent will die and only 2 in 300 will react.

This is just a example, I did not have the facts on this, but taking a the likly hood of a reaction from a bee sting and using the numbers for tarantula bite.

It is highly unlikly that anyone would get medically sick from a tarantula bite.

http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic550.htm

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=11919
text book allergic reaction if it was anything but a tarantula.
thedarkfinder