theorization in progress.

[Malhavoc's]

H.Gigas 2.4hours after that I tilted my hand so she would 'wake up'. I timed it as I thought of that question as well.

 

[cricket54]

I used to do something simular to this several yrs
ago with our red knee. I did this when I was
showing people the tarantula to show them
her fangs and she tolerated it. Turned her
back over and she sat quietly in my hand.
She was literally a pet rock, the nicest T
we ever had. Don't know if I would want to
try this with my Medussa. I have finally gotten
her to stop running from me by cupping my
hand over her eyes, but I didn't try and pick
her up. I have held her, but she is a hair
thrower and it made my hand burn. She
doesn't like being touched so much, so I just
don't do it very often. Lately she has been
irritable anyway. I have several little ones
that I could try this with, but I worry about
them taking off and falling so I don't like
taking chances very much.
Sharon

 

[Garrick]

You sat there still for 2.4 hours? Wow! No wonder spiders are so calm with you. . .your yoga attributes are rubbing off on them!

Anyway, I routinely flip/cradle P. murinus to sex them, and they do seem to "pass out". Most of those are only about 3 1/2" though. I'll try it with a bigger one some time or other.
I was curious as I read your post, so I tried it last night with a good-sized H. lividum. I've hardly bothered that girl in a year or so, except to change the water and pick up debris every so often.
She's pretty leggy, so it was hard to flip her gently- she kept reaching back with one or two legs and trying to scurry off (note- I did this over a soft surface, low to the ground!), and she opened her chelicera a few times, so I let her walk from hand to hand for a while. She eventually calmed down, and I flipped her. I indeed was able to move her legs, lightly rub her fangs, etc., with no response from her.
I've "flipped" lots of A. avicularia and some Ceratogyrus species, and they seem to do the same, so I think maybe you're on to something.
I'll try it with others and try to get some pics to help you out with your idea.

-Garrick


eight

 

[Code Monkey]

The thing to keep in mind is that by and large the invertebrate CNS is reactive to information that comes in via the sensory systems and that very little of that reaction comes from learning but is hardwired. Give an invertebrate a stimulus for which there is a programmed response (or series of responses) you get said programmed response even when this response is impossible.

As an example, a decapitated roach will attempt to clean its tarsi with non-existent mandibles if they become dirty. The behavior is actually controlled by one of the thoracic ganglion and there's no unifying consciousness that says, "Hey, dude, you're missing your head!".

Conversely, when there is no programmed response the invert often doesn't do anything at all. This "hypnotizing" seems to be simply an alternative version of the carapace grip lift (as Vanan noted) -> pick up a T by grasping it between the 2nd and 3rd pairs of legs and lifting such that *all* eight legs leave the ground as simultaneously as possible and it will let you hold it like that indefinitely - but let just one leg touch something, or touch one leg, and suddenly you have a struggling T. It's been hypothesised that this works the way it does because short of intelligent monkey critters with opposable thumbs there's no situation that ever called for the instruction set "when there is no tactile sensation from the tarsi do this" in their evolution.

* Has anyone doing this tried to touch one of the tarsi of the sleeping T with a paint brush or something to see if it "wakes up"?

 

[TheWidowsPeak]

I have done this plenty of times with pzb's and rose hairs and never thought anything of it. but they really do seem tobe hypnotised.. I am curiose(spellinng?) to see what some of the experts think about this?

 

[deifiler]

Originally posted by Code Monkey
The thing to keep in mind is that by and large the invertebrate CNS is reactive to information that comes in via the sensory systems and that very little of that reaction comes from learning but is hardwired. Give an invertebrate a stimulus for which there is a programmed response (or series of responses) you get said programmed response even when this response is impossible.

As an example, a decapitated roach will attempt to clean its tarsi with non-existent mandibles if they become dirty. The behavior is actually controlled by one of the thoracic ganglion and there's no unifying consciousness that says, "Hey, dude, you're missing your head!".

Conversely, when there is no programmed response the invert often doesn't do anything at all. This "hypnotizing" seems to be simply an alternative version of the carapace grip lift (as Vanan noted) -> pick up a T by grasping it between the 2nd and 3rd pairs of legs and lifting such that *all* eight legs leave the ground as simultaneously as possible and it will let you hold it like that indefinitely - but let just one leg touch something, or touch one leg, and suddenly you have a struggling T. It's been hypothesised that this works the way it does because short of intelligent monkey critters with opposable thumbs there's no situation that ever called for the instruction set "when there is no tactile sensation from the tarsi do this" in their evolution.

* Has anyone doing this tried to touch one of the tarsi of the sleeping T with a paint brush or something to see if it "wakes up"?

CM - I've tried touching areas whilst utilising the carapace grip. As perverse as it may seem, I've felt for the bulge, to sex smaller specimens - reactions usually occur due to this, as they do with probing areas of the spider.

However, spiders in such holds, will readily struggle, even when all limbs/appendages are literally suspended. I've had a hell of a task getting ventral shots of SPECIMENS (nto species) such as my male Poecilotheria regalis, Grammostola rosea, Acanthoscurria muculosa and many more. What's more, such 'reactions' occur EVERY time I pick up the spiders that behave like this; in specimens that DONT do this, the reactions NEVER occur. Could this suffice for speculation on the hard-wiring, seeing as the 'behaviour' is seen to occur either:
Every time...
...or...
...Not at all?

I've some specimens that wriggle like hell until put down, others that just wave mainly the chelicarae, as if trying to place a bite. Some spiders will wriggle for no aparaent reason, though with this stimulus theorum in mind, one could suggest air currents/impulses within other sensors...

I like the idea of the spider's not being "hardwired" for such conditions though... But then, what about species that freely jump or fallign spiders etc? Perhaps just a case of 'momentarily sensory deprivation' until contact is initiated to a receptive point, i.e. a spiders leg, then it initiates a 'grasp' "command"

 

[Malhavoc's]

Originally posted by Code Monkey
The thing to keep in mind is that by and large the invertebrate CNS is reactive to information that comes in via the sensory systems and that very little of that reaction comes from learning but is hardwired. Give an invertebrate a stimulus for which there is a programmed response (or series of responses) you get said programmed response even when this response is impossible.

As an example, a decapitated roach will attempt to clean its tarsi with non-existent mandibles if they become dirty. The behavior is actually controlled by one of the thoracic ganglion and there's no unifying consciousness that says, "Hey, dude, you're missing your head!".

Conversely, when there is no programmed response the invert often doesn't do anything at all. This "hypnotizing" seems to be simply an alternative version of the carapace grip lift (as Vanan noted) -> pick up a T by grasping it between the 2nd and 3rd pairs of legs and lifting such that *all* eight legs leave the ground as simultaneously as possible and it will let you hold it like that indefinitely - but let just one leg touch something, or touch one leg, and suddenly you have a struggling T. It's been hypothesised that this works the way it does because short of intelligent monkey critters with opposable thumbs there's no situation that ever called for the instruction set "when there is no tactile sensation from the tarsi do this" in their evolution.

* Has anyone doing this tried to touch one of the tarsi of the sleeping T with a paint brush or something to see if it "wakes up"?

Yes I did. I could 'shake a paw' with a T. Not to mention alot of the time I flipped them they still held on with one or two legs on my thumb and I had to scoot their legs off me to open my hand and they were still in the trance. I've touched every leg held onto it moved it flicked it and no response, and also would it then be the hardwiring that is responsible for Crocodiles and other animals to trance when placed in various positions


And Garrick, I find that they split their chelicra [smile as I call it] when they are straining. much like a heavey weight lifter lifting something to heavy for him/her. and really I find the only time it isnt is when they are in deffense pose.

 

[MizM]

FINALLY! I had time to post the pics! First up, the grouchy H. gigas. She seems to get calmer and calmer with each handling!

 

[MizM]

Next up, she wanted me to take a more attractive photo of her;

 

[MizM]

The "Little Orange Bitey Thing" aka "Hell On 8 Legs";

 

[MizM]

Her cousin, the calm and wuvable P. murinus, not on her back, but posing pretty;

 

[MizM]

And, just had to pop in one of my tiny little blondi... they grow so fast when they're toddlers!

 

[MizM]

Now, I don't know what happend to the lividium and longipedum photos, but I took tons of photos. In EVERY case, with EVERY species, once on their back, it was trance time. We tickled fangs, feet tummies, everywhere, and no response. I found this little experiment very interesting and still want to know WHY they do this!

 

[xanadu1015]

I definitely wouldn't try to pick up Medusa (rosehair), she'll run up the glass just to bite you. She's been really evil lately. Thankfully she doesn't move very fast. I'd probably try it with Savannah (OBT). I've held our male a. moderatum and he gets really still until I flip him back over, he's much calmer than the female (I'm assuming its a she a. moderatum). "She" wriggles too much while trying to flip her over on back to where I'm afraid "she'll" hurt "herself". The others are too small to do this with yet. When I'm holding Dre ( male a. moderatum), I can keep him on his back for a couple minutes, I don't hold him much longer than that.




Laura

 

[MizM]

Keep in mind, even with the "evil" ones... once they are walking on you, YOU are the substrate. (Hey... new t.v. show: "BE the Substrate"!!)=D Anyway, they won't bite what they are walking on. If you put hands and finger up in front of them, they WILL become alarmed. But with just the flat, "hand to hand" walk, there are USUALLY no problems!

(Just call me "Vermiculite"!)

 

[defour]

Originally posted by MizM
once they are walking on you, YOU are the substrate. Anyway, they won't bite what they are walking on.

I've heard at least one bite report that was an exception to the rule. The bite came in the middle of an otherwise uneventful handling, and was more of an exploratory thing than a bite out of defense. If my memory serves, it was an Avicularia sp. Just goes to show that even a "nice" tarantula can stick you.

Steve

 

[DnKslr]

WOW! That's completely amazing! I'm still too uneasy about letting them walk on me. I think it's a trust issue. I'm pretty sure they won't bite me but because my rosea bit me (through gloves) I'm a bit hesitant to just "let" one walk on me even though I know that's the best way.
Terri, feel like taking a trip to Kansas?=D If you put my T's in trance, I can probly get braver.

 

[MizM]

SURE... I'd LOVE to see my dad's birthplace!! I can trance them and then put suggestions in their little brains... "You LOVE Diane", "You will NEVER bite Diane"!!

But seriously, you will learn to trust them more the longer you have them. They each have little idiosyncracies that you will learn to recognise! The are ALL so very DIFFERENT!!!

 

[Malhavoc's]

Okay to try and sum this up somewhat, Has everyone had typiccally the same responses as me and terri and any theories as to why they do it?

 

[Malhavoc's]

is there anyway to turn this thread into a poll so we can tally the results?