1000 spiders in a suitcase

[barabootom]

You have some good arguments Bill.

If the environment is being destroyed, the tarantula population is being destroyed along with it, whether you collect specimens or not.

This is absolutely true. Sadly, the environment is being destroyed in a lot of places.

If the population was so threatened that the removal of one animal severely impacted it, then that population was already crashing. A very basic rule of nature is that all living things die, and hence will be removed from the population. If collecting a single specimen crashes the population, then collecting only speeded up (perhaps very slightly) an inevitable process.

I can't argue this because I believe it's true. I would argue though the current health of a lot of T populations. I believe T populations are declining almost everywhere, mostly due to human impact. I also believe there is a difference in crashing and declining. Taking one specimen isn't going to crash a species but could help lead to its decline. You mentioned one year as a tiny blip on the timeline of tarantula history.

It may help to remember that populations are thousands of years old, and fluctuations in one year due to small scale collecting are tiny blips on the time line.

Once again, you're right. However, if you expand that timeline to the last 10 years, or 20 years, the decline in tarantula populations over that period worldwide is huge, even though it remains a blip on the overall timeline. I believe we are seeing a drastic decline of all species, both in the number of species and the number of individuals, not only in T's but in other animals as well. Are we seeing a crash, or are we seeing a decline? It's very possible tarantulas will decline and become rare in nature outside of parks and protected areas, but still survive outside of those areas. Maybe the collection of one more female now is enough to tip the balance against a species. I agree that taking a T from a healthy population with little or no pressures on its environment will impact the population very little. I also think there is a major assault on T's almost everywhere and we don't have many healthy environments or healthy populations, as compared to even a few decades ago. So if we remove some wild T's, are we protecting them by breeding them for the hobby? Or are we contributing to the decline of a species, even if we are only taking one adult female? I don't think you or I can answer those questions. However, I know we both agree, large scale collecting of wild T's is bad, especially when we are able to breed the ones we already have and produce plenty for the hobby.

 

[ZergFront]

I said this before, keeping Ts in Brazil is illegal.

Wow, even for environmentalists and other specialists? Glad I don't live there!

 

[vvx]

However, if you expand that timeline to the last 10 years, or 20 years, the decline in tarantula populations over that period worldwide is huge, even though it remains a blip on the overall timeline.

I think development of wild lands is more to blame than the wild collection of tarantulas. Hopefully we as a species realize that our population growth cannot be sustained without hurting the planet before we screw it up too far.

 

[Xian]

We can't honestly try to convince ourselves that this guy is the only individual who is taking out a thousand specimens at once. There has to be many more individuals that are collecting at this level. So I'm not sure why the argument is over single T's being collected. I think we need to worry more about them. However like I said earlier, there is no difference between one guy taking 1000 or a thousand guys taking one. Together I believe that they are impacting the populations in addition to detruction of habitat.

 

[Bill S]

However like I said earlier, there is no difference between one guy taking 1000 or a thousand guys taking one. Together I believe that they are impacting the populations in addition to detruction of habitat.

Except that there is no place where 1000 guys take one tarantula each, and there are too many places that export many thousands of tarantulas. For example, I live in the desert outside of Tucson, Arizona, home of a popular tarantula in the trade, and one that has a slow reproductive cycle. But we don't see herds of tarantula collectors wandering through the desert collecting specimens. Yes, we do see a few - and some commercial collectors invade the area. But in areas where the desert is not developed into housing communities, we still have healthy tarantula populations. But the best tarantula habitat is getting paved, built and developed, and that by far does more damage to tarantula populations than the imaginary 1000's of collectors.

Tucson is easily accessible to hobbyists, by freeway, train, air travel, etc., and not terribly far from major populations centers like Los Angeles. Adding to its exposure, the American Tarantula Society brings hobbyists here from all over for its annual conferences. And still we don't see the herds of collectors gathering their one tarantula each. Now picture the jungles of South America, Sri Lanka, or whereever your favorite tarantula comes from. Do you really picture thousands of collectors going there each year to collect one tarantula each? If such a place sees 10 hobbyists in a year catching a spider to bring home, that would be unusual. So I maintain that the small scale hobbyist collecting does not seriously impact tarantula populations, and that there are far more serious issues to be concerned with.

And Barabootom - we agree on more points than we disagree on. It's only the little details that we see differently.

 

[Bill S]

I said this before, keeping Ts in Brazil is illegal.

Laws are made by people, and can be changed through education and public pressure. Just because Brazil may have some bad laws on the books now doesn't mean that people shouldn't be setting goals to work past those laws and do something helpful to the environment and the hobby.

 

[Xian]

Except that there is no place where 1000 guys take one tarantula each, and there are too many places that export many thousands of tarantulas. For example, I live in the desert outside of Tucson, Arizona, home of a popular tarantula in the trade, and one that has a slow reproductive cycle. But we don't see herds of tarantula collectors wandering through the desert collecting specimens. Yes, we do see a few - and some commercial collectors invade the area. But in areas where the desert is not developed into housing communities, we still have healthy tarantula populations. But the best tarantula habitat is getting paved, built and developed, and that by far does more damage to tarantula populations than the imaginary 1000's of collectors.

Tucson is easily accessible to hobbyists, by freeway, train, air travel, etc., and not terribly far from major populations centers like Los Angeles. Adding to its exposure, the American Tarantula Society brings hobbyists here from all over for its annual conferences. And still we don't see the herds of collectors gathering their one tarantula each. Now picture the jungles of South America, Sri Lanka, or whereever your favorite tarantula comes from. Do you really picture thousands of collectors going there each year to collect one tarantula each? If such a place sees 10 hobbyists in a year catching a spider to bring home, that would be unusual. So I maintain that the small scale hobbyist collecting does not seriously impact tarantula populations, and that there are far more serious issues to be concerned with.

And Barabootom - we agree on more points than we disagree on. It's only the little details that we see differently.

I agree with you that the "1's" don't account for a lot, I think that the ones add up to a substantial number over the course of a year. I also agree with you wholeheartedly about the destruction of habitat. My only point was that the combination of the three, individuals, commercial collectors, and habitat destruction are taking their toll on the wild population.

 

[Steve Nunn]

I wonder why Dr. Rogerio Bertani did not submit his post himself and why Steve Nunn had edited his post at 07:58.....

Because Dr Bertani is not a member of the site and I edited because of incorrect spelling. I hope that clears the 'mystery' up for ya...edit...you. And I can assure you I would not bother posting to create more missleading information, only clarify the matter, so did Dr Bertani. If you are unsure, I suggest you ask Dr Bertani (he provided his email address to those who want the truth) or me about my post, I'll tell you down the line my friend, I don't mix words, and I don't create false truths either, I can guarantee you of that. No need to post on another thread (outside the original) and question my intent, I'll find out and reply in short, in short and directly to you, I hope this clarifies the matter.

You'll also note I did not comment about Lee Ardern or what may have happened (unlike yourself and others), how would I KNOW, I can only post information I was asked to from those that DO KNOW and I can assure you, Dr Bertani knows from 1st hand information, not 2nd hand. This is still the case. Ask him about his comment, or me about mine, simple, instead of creating more speculation.

I don't read the papers, so I can't comment on those either.

Steve Nunn

 

[John Kanker]

Re. The smuggling of wild animals.

Many wildlife/conservation/groups/campaigners so forth seem to believe that captive stocks sales can help INCREASE demand for wild stock of a species and not bring it to a stop, sounds silly or is it? lets take off our rose tinted spectacles.

Even when new species are offered as captive offspring from legal collections greed can lead others to go and take more often without permit this we can see happening right now.

Just look what happened with M. balfouri small numbers legally collected and many years of hard work to get numbers up and I seem to recall more then one bloodline being bred so there would be NO need to take wild stock again, only for them to be removed in numbers again quite recently and I believe without permits to take advantage of their high market value, and same thing is still going on right now with P. metallica sad is it not?.

In short laws against exports in many country's do not have much chance of reform while smugglers keep giving a dirty name to the "hobbyists" they supply.

After all if small legal exports and the resulting offspring of a new species are not enough for the market then why help create demand for the species in question that may not have been bought to the attention of the hobby otherwise, knowing greed could lead to wholesale illegal collection to fill that new demand that the legal export has now started?.

Not an argument everyone in this hobby will agree with im sure, but we only have ourselfs to blame when we buy spiders that we know came as adults from "closed" lands, if we can put a stop to that and police our hobby a lot better then we have so far and stop viewing these persons as hobby "folk heros" then maybe more close minded governments will start to change things for the better eh.

John Kanker.

 

[hellraizor]

I just read another story about that happening in the UK. Some guy had baggys full of Ts and got busted.

 

[Bill S]

In response to John Kanker's comments -

There are ways to limit wholesale collecting and yet allow hobbyist collecting. Requiring permits, and only granting permits for small numbers of specimens seems the most reasonable. Arizona does this with its reptiles, which were being severely impacted at one time. There are now "bag limits" in place for all species, and certain species can't be touched without special permits. For a hobbyist visiting Arizona from out of state, the basic collecting permit is a non-resident hunting license. They may then possess a specified number of any given common reptile. They may not commit habitat destruction in the collection of these animals. They may not capture or possess protected animals. And this system seems to be working. There are still a few unethical people who try to mass collect, and those people often get caught and prosecuted. (Our Game & Fish people are knowledgeable about the "target" species, are eager to do their job, and often have the support of local herpetological organizations.)

Similar steps could be taken for arachnids, including tarantulas - not just in this country, but internationally.

 

[Radamanthys]

The problem is, we all love tarantulas. The rest of the world loves money.

 

[UrbanJungles]

Re. The smuggling of wild animals.

Just look what happened with M. balfouri small numbers legally collected and many years of hard work to get numbers up and I seem to recall more then one bloodline being bred so there would be NO need to take wild stock again, only for them to be removed in numbers again quite recently and I believe without permits to take advantage of their high market value, and same thing is still going on right now with P. metallica sad is it not?.

Except that, M. balfouri stock (as well as Po. metallica) never started out that way. All origins of these two species in captivity are the result of illegally acquired specimens being bred...

 

[John Kanker]

Except that, M. balfouri stock (as well as Po. metallica) never started out that way. All origins of these two species in captivity are the result of illegally acquired specimens being bred...

Yes to my way of thinking also P. metallica were smuggled, out of date permits are no permits at all..

As for M. balfouri I only know i have been told that the first collection was made part of a legal expedition on Socotra, im sure David S and a few other others can confirm or deny this?, non the less many species are still being both legally and illegally imported en mass including those commonly bred if that undermines the hard work of the dedicated do we need more law's or just more control of our own hobby?.

 

[metallica]

i do recall a known collector who sold WC P. metallica and M. balfouri, after they allready were in the hobby.

 

[boonbear]

To BillS,
Not to bring up an older post, but I agree with Barabootom that most of the T's were probably captured in the same are. I don't think it would damage the T population over a country, but would definatly hurt their population in one region.
In the same line as another specie taking over, imagine what will happen in Florida in the next 20 years. The reticulated python is quickly becoming an alpha predator, and could replace the alligator. Alligators aren't really designed to compete with these and who knows what the possible consequences are. I know that this isn't an indiginous specie that overtook another, but one that was newly introduced, but I think the reference is valid.
But I do understand and respect your views, and do find validity in most of your posts.

 

[starlight_kitsune]

I'm aware this thread is from ages ago, but I was curious as to what happened in the end.

What was the final count of the T's, is it known what happened to them all AND whether or not it was illegal? (Although I don't see how transportng Ts in a suitcase can possibly be legal)

 

[GPulchra]

That is just wrong!

 

[starlight_kitsune]

I tried looking it up on my own for more details and updates did NOT find any. :?

So I was hopinh maybe someone could at least say how it ended for the T's if nothing else.

And Gpulchra, I find it sorta awesome that you quoted me for your sig.

 

[Poxicator]

If they were sent to the link below, I don't hold out much hope:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8685921.stm