Anything strange about this regalis?

[Storm76]

which is kind of why i think it WOULD be cool to see breeding done storm.

Would be interesting to see if the deformities are a recessive trait, and could the study COULD EVENTUALLY PROVE that long term inbreeding in captivity could be bad!
A LOT of people sort of stick to the tried and true in the hobby, which i respect seeing how im a hobbiest.
I just see no wrong experimenting as long as its a controlled experiment, and whoever is doing so has pure intentions.

Raise the offspring up to adulthood. If there ARE offspring with the same (or different) apparent abnormalities, pair them up amongst themselves (as well as with the "normal" siblings .. repeat.. repeat.. Keep track of numbers, keep good records, and report.
All the while ensuring none of these creep their way into the hobby

Well, the times I read about it, those T's died pretty quickly at some point suddenly after a molt. What WOULD be interesting though is if there are other T's of that batch THAT one came from, that have deformities...

 

[grayzone]

ive read pretty much the same conclusions on the topic as well.
I still feel there is a lot of gray area on the whole matter though, and DO find the idea of digging deeper rather interesting.
I cant or wont tell anybody to or advise anybody ANYTHING about breeding and imbreeding,
but all i can say is if the opportunity ever presents itself, i would certainly try.

Even if i was to get a lot of criticism or negative feedback for attempting, i would go on with it.

Similar experiments get done all the time. While not exactly pertaining to what we are discussing HERE, i remember not too long ago reading about people trying to breed light formed variants of P. plattyoma to see if IT could be passed on..
(KIND OF the same)

 

[Storm76]

ive read pretty much the same conclusions on the topic as well.
I still feel there is a lot of gray area on the whole matter though, and DO find the idea of digging deeper rather interesting.
I cant or wont tell anybody to or advise anybody ANYTHING about breeding and imbreeding,
but all i can say is if the opportunity ever presents itself, i would certainly try.

Even if i was to get a lot of criticism or negative feedback for attempting, i would go on with it.

Totally up to you, Steven. While I personally wouldn't do it, I can understand the reason why someone else would try it. BUT - if that ever happens, people knowing you in the hobby might start to be worried about offspring of that species and won't buy from you anymore or what not...hence why I'd probably leave that to the real arachnologist probably.

Similar experiments get done all the time. While not exactly pertaining to what we are discussing HERE, i remember not too long ago reading about people trying to breed light formed variants of P. plattyoma to see if IT could be passed on..
(KIND OF the same)

Color-forms are an entirely different thing from deformities in my opinion, Steven. Can't really be compared.

 

[Philth]

I wonder how often this kind of thing goes un-noticed with other species. Its easy to see in species with patterns on their abdomens, ( Poecilotheria, Cyriocosmus, Psalmopoeus....) but what about spiders like Brachypelma, Aphonopelma,... How would you even know?:?

Later, Tom

 

[grayzone]

if that ever happens, people knowing you in the hobby might start to be worried about offspring of that species and won't buy from you anymore or what not...hence why I'd probably leave that to the real arachnologist probably.



Color-forms are an entirely different thing from deformities in my opinion, Steven. Can't really be compared.

Yeah, i could DEFINITELY see that as a possibility. If i were to ever try it, it would all go publicly in the forums, and i would just never attempt to sell that type of t again (not that i sell too many anyways). I honestly would like to just SEE the outcome, and would never attempt to pollute the hobby with the offspring (should go without saying).Its a shame that greed can destroy such things though, and there ARE people out there that would do so.

I guess you're right on the fact such matters are best left of to REAL arachnologists, and not an average hobbiest.


And while color forms and deformities ARE very different, the IDEAS behind the two would be the same.

 

[Storm76]

I wonder how often this kind of thing goes un-noticed with other species. Its easy to see in species with patterns on their abdomens, ( Poecilotheria, Cyriocosmus, Psalmopoeus....) but what about spiders like Brachypelma, Aphonopelma,... How would you even know?:?

Later, Tom

Yeah, I can see the problem with the unicolored species...you're right. Never thought about that actually, Tom.

Yeah, i could DEFINITELY see that as a possibility. If i were to ever try it, it would all go publicly in the forums, and i would just never attempt to sell that type of t again (not that i sell too many anyways). I honestly would like to just SEE the outcome, and would never attempt to pollute the hobby with the offspring (should go without saying).Its a shame that greed can destroy such things though, and there ARE people out there that would do so.

I guess you're right on the fact such matters are best left of to REAL arachnologists, and not an average hobbiest.


And while color forms and deformities ARE very different, the IDEAS behind the two would be the same.

I am not doubting your credibility in the least, even if you would try stuff like this - but it comes certainly with a risk. The notion regarding leaving it in the hands of "real" arachnologists I made purely out of the fact, that they can probably tell way more accurately what exactly goes on there. Plus, they have the connections necessary for gen analysis and whatnot I assume.

As for the differences between those two I'd simply ask: If a T is born with only 6 legs, it'd be considered "birth-defect". If a T would be born with green instead of blue colors, it's considered a "color-form" - frankly there's a very thin line for that. One thing is a defect (as in a part of the body missing / not within general parameters in a bad way) and the other is a morph (nothing that seems to influence the organism negatively I guess comes close?). I'm no biologist or the like, so those that can explain it better might can put it into better words, but that's how I personally see it.

 

[2bears]

I would have to go along with long tern captive inbreeding having something to do with it,
2Bears

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Ok, a few things.
There were 5 babies from the sac that were very dark at 2nd instar (Difficult to see patterns on their abdomens), so I kept them back. Out of the 5, two made it so far. Whether only 2 made it because of their different colors, I don't know, but the remaining 2 are as healthy as any of my other spiders. The 2nd "dark one" has the usual "white" section of the folio, but the "dark inner" section only covers about half the area of a usual regalis. It is also healthy as anything. Both are currently around 7cm.
Added to this I have 9 of their brothers and sisters in a communal and all are doing great and show no funny abdominal patterns or health issues.
I will most probably try and breed them at some stage to see what comes of it.
As for being inbred, this is anyone's guess. The mother of this spider, I bought as an adult maybe 6 years ago. The father I got as a sling around 3 years ago from a different person. Only managed to get my first successful sac from the mother around 2 years ago (these babies were from that sac), so wasn't one of her offspring either that mated with her to produce these. Whether they are related somewhere down the line is anyone's guess though.

 

[grayzone]

would be interesting to see how it goes with the other 2 darker ones.
could we possibly see pics of THOSE?

Ive recently been following a thread about a dark GBB as well.. so far its been raised up until adulthood with no complications. Cant wait to see ITS next molt

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?235029-Dark-GBB-slings/page2

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Interesting article in the BTS journal 27-1 if anyone has access to it.

Here is a small section of the article by Ray Gabriel:
"Inbreeding depression in theraphosid spiders, has never been proven, and is primarily based on two anecdotal unpublished accounts of breedings which had poor results, which may just be a ruse to indicate that theraphosid spiders cannot be bred in captivity to show that a constant stream of wild caught material is needed to supply the pet trade. Conjoining is not proof or an “indication” that inbreeding may occur, this can be highlighted by the percentage of wild caught specimens which show conjoined markings, and by the percentage of human twins, triplets, etc. that can be found in human society, along with those who are born with extra digits, etc. (Google is your friend). We are only noticing conjoining in theraphosid spiders (with patterned abdomens) due to the increase in captive breeding successes, and survival of the young. In species without patterned abdomens it is not noticeable at all unless the abdomen has split partially or fully into two abdomens (Verdez and Cléton 2001, Gabriel 2006b, 2010a, 2011b, Gabriel - Further instances of conjoining in theraphosid spiders unpublished)."

 

[Ceratogyrus]

would be interesting to see how it goes with the other 2 darker ones.
could we possibly see pics of THOSE?

The one dark sling turned into the spider pictured in this post and the other one, I will try get a pic of once it has moulted.

 

[grayzone]

OOH.. did you always see the double folio, or was it only apparent after this most recent molt?

 

[Ceratogyrus]

The double folio has always been there, it was just to small to get decent pics of. Moulted this last week, so managed to finally get a few pics of it. As soon as the other one moults I will get pics of it too. Not quite as unique as this one though.

 

[web eviction]

Does it appear normal ventrally?

 

[grayzone]

Does it appear normal ventrally?

did you mean leg banding wise?

 

[web eviction]

Ya and also the belly band and such just curious...

 

[zonbonzovi]

Does it appear normal ventrally?

Yeah, I'm kind of curious as to what the book lungs, furrow, etc. look like.

 

[flex]

I'd say breed it... And please make the results public... And keep us posted on the breeding results of the siblings...
On another note: I think we must take into account that diet also affects color over a span of time... Most of these tarantulas are being fed crickets,roaches,mice,anoles, etc.... And probably none of those prey animals were consumed in the wild... And if they are ,none of them are gut loaded, with the things we gut load our feeders... So in essence over time , in can affect color, size, and lifespan of a Tarantula, I am very curious about inbreeding in Tarantulas, and would like to see more results posted...
I dont think alot of inbreeding happens between clutch mates as males mature much faster than females... And so the likelihood of that happening is slim(but I know if females of some species are powerfed it can happen)

Some tarantulas develop abscesses others die for no reason as slings or adults... Maybe a case of certain vitamins or mineral not found in there prey items...

Very interesting post*

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Ventrally they look like any other regalis. They are only around 7cm, so the band is just starting to show now. Will try get some pics later.
I don't often find that males mature faster than females. Currently have a few spiders (regalis, metallica) where the females have outgrown the males by a mile. They are kept in identical containers and fed at the same time, so don't think that that should be a rule.

 

[flex]

Speaking then from my experiences : hence I go on to say it can happen
So in NO way am I stating it is a RulE...

Been keeping T's now for 8yrs... Have raised a few species , all the males matured before the females...
(but that's my experiences