How many of you handle your T?

[Pociemon]

1) Comparing domesticated cats and dogs to wild felines and canines 'in nature' makes no sense. Domesticated cat's and dog's behavior has changed over thousands of years of living with humans: they do like to be petted. Dogs in particular have developed the ability to 'read' and understand us; an ability no wolf has. Dogs risk their lives for humans, and sometimes die trying to save them. Tarantulas are somehow like dogs? You analogy is completely faulty.

2) With the looming possibility of bans on tarantulas in a couple European countries, you're under the impression that a highly publicized bite or two won't have an impact? That's exactly the kind of thing that spurs politicians to action. Another argument devoid of logic.

Of course T´s are not like dogs. I dont really care whether it is faulty, not the point. The point is it is absolutely crazy to see people judge people and write the way they do to people who are honest and say yes i handle. It is human nature i guess.
Of course a bite looks bad, but it is a drop of water in the atlantic ocean really, they dont kill people, if they could, then it would get emmidiate attention as with snakes. I dont care if my logic is off, i stand by what i mean. If you dont like it! Well, it is not my problem;-)

---------- Post added 07-05-2014 at 08:56 AM ----------

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Comparing dogs and cats to tarantulas is absolutely ludicrous. Dogs are pack animals. They do not do well without interaction with their pack, be it other dogs or their human families. Many dogs develop varying degrees of separation anxiety when they DON'T get regular interaction with their pack members, be they 2-legged or 4-legged. Cats tend to be more solitary, but most definitely seek attention from their human housemates.

Personally, I couldn't give a flying rat's butt about popular opinion. Be very careful about making gross generalizations.
I do not promote handling tarantulas for many of the reasons already mentioned. The only times I have deliberately handled any of mine was out of necessity for medical treatment, or during recapture of attempted escapees. I have handled a few on rare occasion during rehousing or cage maintenance when they chose to walk up on my hand of their own accord, or toddled over the side of their open enclosure and I put out my hand to catch them. There is just rarely any need to handle a tarantula.

While I don't promote handling, for the most part I couldn't give a second flying rat's butt for what other people do with their own animals, except for the extent to which their stupidity could affect my tarantula keeping. There are many jurisdictions here in the states where T keeping is currently considered illegal. Let the media get wind of a child being bitten, or someone being blinded by urticating hairs, and you can bet local lawmakers will reconsider their stand. There are those who handle responsibly but, I sure as heck do not want my right to keep tarantulas compromised by the select few idiots wearing tarantulas on their faces.

I actually dont promote handling, i just commented a little bit out of anger, my example may have been bad, but it does not give people the right to give others this kind of treatment. These examples where some people do these things is so crazy and far out that they probably is out of psychological range. I hate this as much as anybody in here, i just get annoyed by this bad behaviour from people in here. I think it is much better to educate people about it. And i do know that not all are hypocrits;-), but it is a fact that many write no handling in here and on other places, but in private he/she is very different, i have witnessed this ALOT of times. That is why i have trouble taking these threads seriously.
I also want the hobby to succeed, but i just dont see what good these threads do to prevent this with the way people behave. I dont know the solution, but a good thing would be if anybody could get some sense into a guy who shows a T on his head and this crazy stuff. otherwise it is a well written post you wrote;-)

 

[BobGrill]

The only one I ever used to handle was my rosie, which I first got when I was 10. I stopped handling her when I was about 12 or 13. Since then, I have never intentionally held a tarantula. Having that little versi slings crawl up my arm was pretty fun though. It tickled

 

[Poec54]

Downsides to handling: increased possibility of escapes and bites, possibility of injury or death of spider, possibility of incident going viral adversely effecting hobby.

Benefits to handling: having a large, hairy spider with huge fangs walk on you.


I can definitely see why it's worthwhile.

 

[Formerphobe]

[QUOTE I think it is much better to educate people about it. And i do know that not all are hypocrits;-), but it is a fact that many write no handling in here and on other places, but in private he/she is very different, i have witnessed this ALOT of times. That is why i have trouble taking these threads seriously.
I also want the hobby to succeed, but i just dont see what good these threads do to prevent this with the way people behave. I dont know the solution, but a good thing would be if anybody could get some sense into a guy who shows a T on his head and this crazy stuff. otherwise it is a well written post you wrote;-)[/QUOTE]

I, too, feel education is key. But, some people are going to do what they want to do regardless. I believe if you look through my photo thread, you will find three, maybe four 'handling' pictures (if memory serves me). All were due to the individual spiders bypassing my manipulations with tongs or chopsticks during rehousings. All were slings or juvies. I rarely, if ever, even manipulate my subadults or adults out of their enclosures for photo shoots. Just not worth the risk, IMO.

These threads will continue to pop up due to newcomers asking and, to a lesser degree, trolls trying to start drama. Some people feel very passionately, one way or the other, and will feed the drama. Many forums have banned handling photos to avoid just such debate.

---------- Post added 07-05-2014 at 08:57 AM ----------

Downsides to handling: increased possibility of escapes and bites, possibility of injury or death of spider, possibility of incident going viral adversely effecting hobby.

Benefits to handling: having a large, hairy spider with huge fangs walk on you.


I can definitely see why it's worthwhile.

Another downside: many people with dogs and cats apply monthly topical pesticides for fleas and ticks. There is the remote possibility of transferring the pesticide to the handled tarantula. Then you have the dreaded DKS threads rearing their ugly heads.

 

[Pociemon]

Well i probably ended up heating the debate, would have been more wise to do the opposite;-). But i simply got annoyed by how people behave. This endless lecturing some people use in here does not work, if it did, these threads would not pop up anymore!
I too have handling videos on my youtube channel wich is no secret as it is in my signature. For many people the experience of holding a T is great, but normally it fades out and other stuff with the animals gets interesting. it is how it worked out for me. The need for handling usually dissappears along the way. That is why i feel it is better to learn people how to do it correctly, because they will do it anyway, lecturing them does nothing at all, so why not help them so accidents are less likely to happen!

 

[Poec54]

For many people the experience of holding a T is great, but normally it fades out and other stuff with the animals gets interesting. it is how it worked out for me. The need for handling usually dissappears along the way. That is why i feel it is better to learn people how to do it correctly, because they will do it anyway, lecturing them does nothing at all, so why not help them so accidents are less likely to happen!

That's one of the problems. More people handle early on, and as they progress, many see there's more to lose and nothing to gain. It's the beginners that see a video or picture of someone handling a and want to do it themselves. They have no idea which species are fast, aggressive, or have stronger venoms. They usually select their spiders by the 'pretty colors.' That means they're all too often handling species that are risky. They don't know the difference. They see other people do it, so they copy them. What we should be doing is discouraging all of that, and not 'helping' them to handle. That's how you have fewer accidents; most bites involve handling. These are wild animals we should treat with respect, they're not toys, not circus sideshow props.

And a certain percentage want to take it farther, as they're obviously friendly, harmless pets, right? I've seen pics and videos of Theraphosas and others with severe urticating hairs on peoples faces. Poecs in people's mouths. And we're the 'peak of evolution'?

This hobby's not about handling and thrill seeking, or somehow having a deep mutual emotional relationship with an invertebrate. The more we get away from that, the better.

 

[Pociemon]

That's one of the problems. More people handle early on, and as they progress, many see there's more to lose and nothing to gain. It's the beginners that see a video or picture of someone handling a and want to do it themselves. They have no idea which species are fast, aggressive, or have stronger venoms. They usually select their spiders by the 'pretty colors.' That means they're all too often handling species that are risky. They don't know the difference. They see other people do it, so they copy them. What we should be doing is discouraging all of that, and not 'helping' them to handle. That's how you have fewer accidents; most bites involve handling. These are wild animals we should treat with respect, they're not toys, not circus sideshow props.

And a certain percentage want to take it farther, as they're obviously friendly, harmless pets, right? I've seen pics and videos of Theraphosas and others with severe urticating hairs on peoples faces. Poecs in people's mouths. And we're the 'peak of evolution'?

This hobby's not about handling and thrill seeking, or somehow having a deep mutual emotional relationship with an invertebrate. The more we get away from that, the better.

i actually want to achieve the same scenario you say here, but i would choose another path. Hopefully we will get there someday, i just doubt it will be in my lifetime...

 

[Storm76]

We here in Europe actually face real threats to our hobby, right now it is Germany and Netherlands that are in threat of loosing the right to own these animals, and it has nothing to do with handling at all. But it can quickly spread to your country and mine too, but not because of handling.

As a sidenote: There's a reason why Poecilotheria spp. are banned in many parts in Germany already, while in others you actually need a permit to keep them. And I'm pretty sure that from the amount of bites people received, very close to 90% were because the keeper was irresposible (in turn being the reason why these species is banned: Venom strength). Which includes handling such species I might add. I know you probably have a different opinion on that particular subject, but suffice to say that the risk of a bite is always there if you do handle a spider. Doesn't matter the species, size or sex of the T in question - it's simply a nocturnal predator acting purely on instinct. Thus in my opinion that someone can do something, doesn't necessarily mean it should be done.

 

[Pociemon]

As a sidenote: There's a reason why Poecilotheria spp. are banned in many parts in Germany already, while in others you actually need a permit to keep them. And I'm pretty sure that from the amount of bites people received, very close to 90% were because the keeper was irresposible (in turn being the reason why these species is banned: Venom strength). Which includes handling such species I might add. I know you probably have a different opinion on that particular subject, but suffice to say that the risk of a bite is always there if you do handle a spider. Doesn't matter the species, size or sex of the T in question - it's simply a nocturnal predator acting purely on instinct. Thus in my opinion that someone can do something, doesn't necessarily mean it should be done.

It is irrelevant what i think, it is a sad situation for our hobby. Of course bites looks bad and especcially the from more potent T´s. I just dont see bites coming from handling them, it is more when people makes errors when dealing with them. I only reacted strongly earlier in this thread because many people really dont know how to behave, they obviously feel that it is their birthright to blast at the poor gouys that raise handling questions.

 

[Poec54]

bites looks bad and especcially the from more potent T´s... they obviously feel that it is their birthright to blast at the poor gouys that raise handling questions.

If you're not handling you spiders, there's a much lower chance of getting bit. There's been a disporportionately high number of bites from Brachypelma, from people carelessly handling them. To a lot of beginners, there's no difference between Brachypelma, OBT's, and Poecs, and they think all are okay to handle.

High profile bites are what the public fears and is the main reason why tarantulas get regulated and banned, and handling is the primary cause. Hobbyists will naturally get upset about someone taking foolish risks handling many tropical species and jeopardizing other people's right to own them. No one has the 'right' to screw it up for everyone else. That will get people mad, and rightly so. If Florida bans tarantulas because someone here got bit putting tarantula on his face, you better believe I'm going to be mad. Not like that guy was a serious longterm hobbyist. It becomes an emotional issue when one person's irresponsible actions can take away the right of thousands of other people to own them.

 

[Pociemon]

If you're not handling you spiders, there's a much lower chance of getting bit. There's been a disporportionately high number of bites from Brachypelma, from people carelessly handling them. To a lot of beginners, there's no difference between Brachypelma, OBT's, and Poecs, and they think all are okay to handle.

High profile bites are what the public fears and is the main reason why tarantulas get regulated and banned, and handling is the primary cause. Hobbyists will naturally get upset about someone taking foolish risks handling many tropical species and jeopardizing other people's right to own them. No one has the 'right' to screw it up for everyone else. That will get people mad, and rightly so. If Florida bans tarantulas because someone here got bit putting tarantula on his face, you better believe I'm going to be mad. Not like that guy was a serious longterm hobbyist. It becomes an emotional issue when one person's irresponsible actions can take away the right of thousands of other people to own them.

We agree 100% on most things. But you misunderstand me here, i dont like the way people talk to the people dont know the pros and cons about it and ask here for help. It does not help anything to talk down to them. Many of them really just dont know, and i am sure those who asks in here for advice is NOT the ones who put T´s in the mouth for show, they dont ask, they just do! Another thing is that most bites occur when caretaker makes mistakes when moving them or doing maintanence or stuff like that. If a T is taken out the correct way, they veeery rarely bites, they just run og sit there and are more confused than bitey. That is the reason i prefer to educate people on the subject. It is the better solution. The ones that do this really crazy stuff are rarely on the boards asking about it is a good idea to put a poecilotheria ornata in the mouth....

 

[cold blood]

I just dont see bites coming from handling them

Seriously? I do.

---------- Post added 07-06-2014 at 09:38 AM ----------

i dont like the way people talk to the people... It does not help anything to talk down to them. That is the reason i prefer to educate people on the subject.

And therein lies the issue. Perception....what one sees as "talking down", others see as an attempt at "educating", they are often the same exact thing, perceived very differently. Many people just don't like to be educated by those they don't even know, so they take things the wrong way, get all offended (as we see daily) and fight the education, because they FEEL they are being talked down to. People in general are often way too easily offended. We see it all the time, someone asks for advise, is given great advise, and fights it for the rest of the thread. Many people are simply offended by people trying to educate them, that's a shame...too much internal pride gets in the way of actually learning.

 

[Pociemon]

Seriously? I do.

---------- Post added 07-06-2014 at 09:38 AM ----------



And therein lies the issue. Perception....what one sees as "talking down", others see as an attempt at "educating", they are often the same exact thing, perceived very differently. Many people just don't like to be educated by those they don't even know, so they take things the wrong way, get all offended (as we see daily) and fight the education, because they FEEL they are being talked down to. People in general are often way too easily offended. We see it all the time, someone asks for advise, is given great advise, and fights it for the rest of the thread. Many people are simply offended by people trying to educate them, that's a shame...too much internal pride gets in the way of actually learning.

Well you might be spot on, it could be true. I just see many people trying to their best to attack as a pack of wolves, and i find this way wrong.

I dont think bites comes when T´s are up on the arm, if handling is the cause it is probably the pickup. I have not seen a T just bite out of nowhere when on a arm. But of course it has happened, i am sure, but i dont think it is there the most bites occur.

 

[Poec54]

if handling is the cause it is probably the pickup.

That's probably the most common time, lifting them up. Look at how fast they leap on prey, or can dash across the cage when startled. A giant creature comes in a grabs them, which in the wild is almost certain death. And when I see then do that, I say to myself: 'There's NO way I'm holding that animal.'

 

[Pociemon]

That's probably the most common time, lifting them up. Look at how fast they leap on prey, or can dash across the cage when startled. A giant creature comes in a grabs them, which in the wild is almost certain death. And when I see then do that, I say to myself: 'There's NO way I'm holding that animal.'

It is logic that it should be happen at this time. Some people are plain stupid and take them up directly from their enclosure, others do take them out first, but then use the hands to get it up, but it is a bad thing, they still dont know how the T will react and can bite at any second. if done correctly you take it out, use a tool to coax it in the direction you need. But in a perfect world, you dont handle them ;-)
Many dont understand how and why T´s react how they do, i too sometimes wonder why they act the way they do. When i pick up haplopelma in the nature 50% of them reacts as you expect them to do, that is being very defensive, but the other half are almost timid and are easy to pickup. Why is that! i dont know, but i do know that they cant be trusted.
But how we solve this problem i dont know, i feel educating people is the better choice..

This thing on bashing on people who ask handling questions is like having a teenage boy/daughter, and you tell them they are not allowed to smoke or drink. They will just get more curios when you make bans and try it out anyway...

 

[DVMT]

I completely agree here. I LOVE holding my "friendly" t's on occasion. But, I always make sure they are feeling calm if I ever do let one crawl up my hand. Also, yes, ALWAYS over a low surface. I also have friends, family members, and so on that have decreased their arachnophobias by handling my calmest t. Also, many of you seem to not understand why one would want to hold their t's but to me, it's quite simple. They are amazing, cool, and cute animals! Just like we think our pet hamsters are cute, we have a yearning to touch and connect with them. It's a very human thing that the tarantula won't understand, but it definitely deepens my love for the hobby.

+1 and applause

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[Formerphobe]

Also, many of you seem to not understand why one would want to hold their t's but to me, it's quite simple. They are amazing, cool, and cute animals! Just like we think our pet hamsters are cute, we have a yearning to touch and connect with them.

I view tarantulas in the same light as tropical fish which are also amazing, cool and cute animals but, I never felt any yearning to touch and connect with them. Though I did have a couple that would clear the water to take feeder fish from my fingers.
Every hamster I ever held tried to kill me. Absolutely no desire to touch or connect with them either. A few other scenarios come to mind...

 

[Storm76]

Bottom line: Handling obviously makes it more likely to get bitten / have a hurt or dead T (worst case). That and the for the other reasons I stated, is the reason why I usually avoid it. I can't count how often I got "jumped" by a spooked Avicularia sling while doing maintenance on their jars, but to my knowledge I have never been bitten by any. That said, some of the very same individuals have displayed quite defensive behavior before and considering how small they are, the worst I ever got after such was a severe itch. Now, I could assume the animal possibly tagged me, but even if so: I didn't realize it.

On the same note: I don't act the same way with the Poecies as I do with my Avics. Simply because I'm fully aware of what they're capable of and I'm not willing to take the risk of becoming another reason for official decisions about them in this country here, only because I was too complacent and made mistakes. Which is exactly the reason why I avoid handling for the most part. It does happen, but it's never intentional - except for the E. sp. "red". But even with those, it is not me initiating any of that, it's them being curious and wanting to wander around. Meaning I completely and utterly avoid it generally. That said, it would be pretty nice if there would be a way to make certain you won't get bit, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon. If at all.

It is for that reason, that when people ask me over here, I do deviate from the general opinion a lot of breeders / keepers over here seemingly have and answer: "Put simply - don't." With aforementioned explanations after that obviously, but still: The point is to take people's fears away, not to make the respectless of the animal and what it is capable off. I think it's a fine line to do so and I consider it rather difficult to find it, because it depends heavily on how the other person perceives you and those explanations.

Lastly - I won't tell anyone not to try handling their T's, but I will strongly advise against it depending on the person, the T species / size aso in general. What you do with your T, is your decision, just keep in mind the majority of hobbyists has some very firm opinions about certain subjects involving these animals and thus some of us are probably more defensive over this or that and have a somewhat short fuse.

 

[BobGrill]

This is one of those circular debates that is never going to get resolved, because so many people have opposing viewpoints on the subject. I don't handle tarantulas and I discourage it whenever I can. I understand poec's concerns with having a few reckless individuals getting species banned from the hobby, and therefore making it impossible for the rest of us to acquire them. In this case, one bad apple does indeed spoil the bunch. At the same time though, people are going to do whatever they want to do. If someone wants to handle their tarantulas and risk both their safety and the spider's, then let them. Yeah, it sucks, but what the heck can we do about it honestly? It's pretty much out of our control. The only thing we can really do is to continue doing what we're already doing, and politely educate people.

 

[nicodimus22]

Handling a tarantula is kind of like taking a Chihuahua on a roller coaster. You can do it, but there is no good reason to, and there are a ton of things that could go terribly wrong.