Poecilotheria identification

[MrFeexit]

I personally am not trying to put anyone down I am simply stating the fact that there is information created by an apparantly excellent artist and Tarantula enthusiast that I have no way of accessing unless I know the right people...I don't know the right people, I just know the folks here, kinda. I will in fact try to email him to see if I might be able to view the chart.

Peace
Ed

 

[Aviculariinae]

ill second that,ive only spoken to him a few times,but he is a very pleasent person and very helpfull whenever he can be!
I think people have judged and sentenced him already!

Its a media verdict,Guility until proven innocent!

 

[Code Monkey]

@Martin: I do know exactly who Soren is, I do know exactly how much he does contribute. I still think his reaction to this was like a three y.o. screaming "MINE!" as he grabs a toy away from his sibling.

My thoughts are definitely biased in that he saw fit to boot me from theraphosid_description_papers for no reason and without warning or notice, but that's more 3 y.o. tactics as far as I'm concerned.

That his first posts to this forum are to act like said 3 y.o. without considering that someone might just be trying to help others find out definitively if they've been ripped off is just more crap in my opinion. No one was trying to take credit for his work like he accused, just erroneously re-distributing a document in whole with all copyright and authorship intact.

I don't even have a copy of the Poecilotheria chart that is the center of this bruhaha, I foolishly assumed that I would have access to it at my leisure on TDP since Soren, keeper of the keys, had approved my membership, but I guess I won't have a copy at all any more since because one person made an error in judgment, he lashes out at everyone who isn't part of his personal clique.

 

[Code Monkey]

Addendum

The problem that seems to escape those of you apologizing for him by proxy is that he took a genuine issue: Jacobi redistributing his document without permission, and coupled it with something completely unrelated: kicking everyone out of TDP that wasn't part of his personal clique.

That is uncalled for and wrong for the hobby.

He's still contributed far more to the freely available info than I will probably ever do, and he's still a great guy.

He is also 100% in the wrong for the way he handled this.

 

[Aboreal Rayne]

morallity question...

Well I do understand where Soren is coming from, even if I don't know him. Still Code Monkey's got a good point. Furthermore I'ed like to point out had not been for the "error" in question, the Pokie Chart would still be locked up, being shared with a select few. I view this kind of behavior the reason why it was so hard for me to learn about this genus. My lack of education made me a perfect target for those whe "knew" what they were talking about. And behind it I was convinced to buy a very expensive Sri-Lankan as a P. Formosa. Had I had the chart could this had happend? Knoledge is power...Share the power....

~Rayne~

 

[looseyfur]

trolls

I would suspect the main reason that list is a members onlylist is that they dont want the list clogged or in the hands of trolls... all that information I would like to beleive is forthcomming once its in a state where it can be shared logically and once its been summed up and any discrepiencys laid to rest.

ON the other hand I am not a big fan of what happend to code. I think honestly it was uncalled for. I also find myself sympathizing with Soren and am truely greatfull for all the information he has shared with the community catch 22 agreeing with mr. jacobi's statements for the most part though alittle asking or forethought would have went a long way he was MAN enough to accept his mistake which I beleive was truely wanting to HELP the folks here with their pokie misidentification...


What I dont abide is the skeevy (cencored) who has decided to create this chain of events and with anyluck he will choke on that big T-bone steak he bought with the money he rooked out of you...


looseyfur arachnofur

 

[Telson]

Just to clarify my own point of view, as stated in my other posts, I have no prior experience with this person or knowlege of his site or his work. This thread and his posts in it however have put a VERY sour taste in my mouth regarding what kind of person he SEEMS to be, and made an utterly lousy first impression. If by virtue of additional info being put out to explain some of his actions in this thread I should have a change of opinion, then so be it, but mind you, I have merely expressed my own first impression, and most likely my last impression of this person, as he has made it so abundantly clear in this thread that he is among the T Elite and doesn't want unknowns around who might pilfer his work. My issue is not with him personally, but with ANYONE who has that kind of knowlege and tallent who secludes it amongst only those he has personally deemed "worthy" to share it with to the exclusion of the main body of the hobbyist community. That is just wrong, no matter how you cut it.

In regard to your post, Lopez:
I think Soren was actually referring to the arachnid_world group there, of course I might be wrong....

In his post, which I previously quoted, he prefaces the site he is talking about as "My site" and goes on to toute its many virtues and wonders, and drops the biggest names in the hobby as regulars. If he is refferring to a site OTHER than his own in regard to the latter of this post, then he failed to name it. The resulting impression I got was that of an owner of a small night club on Hollywood Blvd. who is bragging about all the famous people who frequent HIS wonderous club, while at the same time making it clear to those he is bragging to that they are not worthy of admittance because they are not "connected". If his post was intended to give praise to someone elses site then he has committed the same faux pass for which he erroniously tore in to someone else recently on this very thread, IMHO. That post clearly claims credit for what ever site it is reffering to.

Again, as previously stated, he had a right to be upset that his work was posted or linked to without his consent, but considering the nature of the work in question, his reaction seems to me the opposite of what it should be, cause if his goal is to spread knowlege about T's and help build the hobby, how could a person be so upset that someone helped him do so? The link/post was obviously not intended to take credit for his work, and was equally obviously intended to help spread valuable information thoughout the hobbyist community, as it should be.

 

[metallica]

Hi Søren,

still thumbs up for your work!

Eddy "the mad Dutchman"

 

[Aboreal Rayne]

Telson you took my words...

Telson first let me say "Here, Here, good form ol' boy". You really couldn't hit the nail anymore perfect on the head. I guess what this whole thread comes down to: What good is valuable/new information if it's kept to one's self. Why was the info put on the net anyway if it was classified information to begin with? Telson you right about that sour after-tase too, kinda lingers for a wile too...anyway I think people should stop worrying about the "cool factor", you shouldn't have to be in the correct "group" to get this kind of info. Damn that taste just don't go away, I need some mouth-wash!

~Rayne~

 

[flchris]

its like going to school and the teacher hiding all the books for the smart kids:?

 

[Code Monkey]

@Telson: I am, in spite of the omission of the title, 99% certain Soren was referring to Arachnid_world in his "name dropping" portion of the post. I am very familiar with A_w and his description fits it perfectly, it does not in any way, shape, or form fit the now controversial TDP he started off the post talking about.

In fact, I had mentally inserted "Arachnid_world" into that part of the post for that reason, it wasn't until you made your post that I realised that Soren seemed to have skipped tracks mid-posting. At least that part of your indignation with him is based on misunderstanding.

The rest of it I am very sympathetic with. Although most of the hobby biggies are either on A_w or ATS_enthusiast, the majority of the traffic in the English speaking world is on this board. In terms of making a first impression on probably more hobbyists than have ever read a thing by him, he could definitely have chosen a better way.

I'd personally like to see more posts by him on this board in spite of all this, I just also want to see him address the matter of his childish closing of TDP while he's at it.

 

[Telson]

Code:

If his praise was aimed at a site other than his own, then that does change the tune of the song he seemed to be singing, but at the same time, it also proves he puts his pants on one leg at a time, same as the rest of us, no matter WHO we know, and we ALL make mistakes. One such mistake was obviously posting/linking this chart without permission, which was apologised for, and the intent clarified in a dignified manner, and I think it a very forgivable offense considering the circumstances. Another such mistake was tearing in to Jacobi the way he did in a public forum as a self introduction in an area where it is himself who is the unknown stranger to many, falsely accusing him of trying to take credit, and as so eloquently put in someones previous post, acting like a child screaming "MINE!!" and running off with something that was innocently posted in an effort to assist the general population of this forum, meanwhile giving the impression that he is an elitist and above the riff-raff here whom he does not deem worthy to allow access to the materials posted there... Again, just my opinion based on his choice of words, none of which has he had the decency to respond to, explain, or apologise for, which only further adds to the impression that he thinks himself on a higher level.

The thread originally being about IDing Pokies, and myself soon to be needing access to such information as was previously posted here, being as I recently got a sling that has yet to show it's "true colors", I'm quite put off by the way he has limited access to this information without explanation as to why, other than the simple "IT'S MINE!" tirade given when he did it. I'd much rather be continuing the thread as it relates to the propper subject it was intended to discuss, so, on that note... Anyone know any other sites with similar info we can actually make use of without drawing the wrath of the owner?

 

[Telson]

One last comment on this though...

Originally posted by Martin H.
.


you don't know the whole background, you don't know Søren, but you are trying to put him down – man that sucks! =:-(

And for those with such comments like that Søren don't want's to share his knowledge: join the different mailing lists (for example arachnid_world) go to the archives, search for "Søren", see what he has posted in the past and to whom and then rethink your comments – IMHO they are really really silly and stupid!

just my two cents!
Martin

Martin:

I'm not on those mailing lists and until this thread I did not know they existed, which is the very point here... Too much info can ONLY be found in places the average hobbyist doesn't know exists, and to further complicate the matter by making such valuable info as was posted here for everyones benifit an "exclusive perk" of being a member of his personal click only furthers the problem rather than lending to the solution. Were he to post an apology for being so harsh in the public post, explain that it was in the heat of the moment of finding his work published in an unauthorized manner, and that he indeed did make a mistake in assuming credit was being wrongly taken from him for his work, I'm sure that my opinion of him would certainly change... But he has not done this and with only what I've read from him in this thread to go by, what should make me think he will? He may very well be a very giving, wonderful person in his own circles, but he stomped in here and made a VERY bad first impression on people who don't know him from Adam, and I don't think anyone who has had no other experience with him beyond this could think of him as you describe, nor should we be expected to. Calling US silly and stupid certainly won't change my opinion of him, but I am sorry if this offends you, and I respect you for standing up for your friend since you clearly know him better than we do.

 

[Steve Nunn]

For the majority of folks on this board, I think you'd need to understand the copyright issues of late many of the serious collectors are having at present. Some have gone so far as to pay proffessionals to protect their work. That said, Soren's own paperwork took a lot of time and effort and I don't blame him one bit for trying to protect it, I would too. It's all fair and well to say "oh, just share the love", but as was shown, it doesn't work that way, people steal other peoples stuff. Do you guys lock the doors of your house to protect your goods, why is this any different???

Mr Jacobi sincerely apologized and I think things were cleared up there, I think this may have just been a wake up call for Soren regarding copyright.

The TDP list isn't just a hobby list, as such, it's aimed toward the serious collector. The members can upload their work for all members on the group to see, this work takes time and effort, it isn't simply a photo for example. If the list became open again, it would allow any old Joe to come along and download what they like, then proceed to show it off as their own AND THIS HAPPENS ALL TOO OFTEN!!

So, what's Soren supposed to do?? Risk all his time and effort to possible theives (no, I'm not calling anyone a thief) for the general good of the people, or protect his work as best he knows how, while still allowing people he knows and trusts to view it? I think he chose the fairest option.

We're in a hobby where the serious collector can knuckle down and actually publish their work. Make no mistake, Soren is a serious collector and should he plan to one day publish his work, he's gonna have to protect it, others could publish before him.

Another thing to consider is that information theft is big in the theraphosid world, peoples scientific findings are stolen all the time. Many of the big names you guys all know of have actually had their work stolen and published by someone else (I'm not going to name names).

Please think about these things before you judge Soren, the T world is more cut throat then you know.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Telson]

Granted, I'm sure that information theft happens, and it is indeed unfortunate and wrong. This was NOT such a case however, and to slam someone openly and accuse them of such in open forum is also wrong. If he wishes to maintain parts of his work for future publication, common sense says to copyright it BEFORE posting it for even his closest friends to view. Placing something this "sensative" to theft on the WWW and then ripping in to someone who thought to share this tallent with the hobbyist community at large was simply a plethera of mistakes on his part, followed by an open attack on someone who was innocently trying to share information that was already posted on the net elsewhere. If he did not want this spread across the net he should have sent it to the limited number of people he cared to share it with via email. It's about as sensable as posting nekid pics of your incredibly sexy wife on your web site and then getting mad cause they get shared!!

Perhaps my perspective is incorrect, but the issue at hand is how he was PERCIEVED by the poeple here, and perceptions can indeed be seriously off the mark, but knowing this, Soren should have handled the matter QUITE differently if he did not wish to damage his own reputation and public perception of him on this forum.

Again, if he were to post his explanation and apologize for his heavy handed response to this faux pass, I'm sure peoples opinions would be altered, but instead I keep seeing other poeple doing his apologies FOR him. That in itself says something about his personality to me.

Now can we PLEASE get back to the original topic and stop choosing side "for or against" this person? He is not the topic, but rather has rolled in and BECOME the topic, and though it may upset some people, I personally have been given the impression that this is something he would enjoy simply for the fact that everyone is talking about HIM.

 

[Steve Nunn]

Telson, if you wish for this thread to continue without Soren as the issue, then why do you continually bring him up?? Read your last post, your opinion on him was mentioned like three times. You don't know him, you're assuming and you're beyond way off. Truth be told, if only other experienced hobbyists would contribute to the hobby in general as Soren has done, this hobby would be in a far better place.

He had a right to be upset, his work was put on someone elses server WITHOUT permission.

Steve

 

[Lopez]

Originally posted by Telson
Now can we PLEASE get back to the original topic and stop choosing side "for or against" this person? He is not the topic, but rather has rolled in and BECOME the topic, and though it may upset some people, I personally have been given the impression that this is something he would enjoy simply for the fact that everyone is talking about HIM.

You really have no idea.

 

[Crotalus]

I have had pictures stolen from my site, posted on a swedish zoo parks website, and they got pissed off when I reminded them of copyright regulations.
Offcourse Søren get pissed off when someone take his work and put it up on his website.
Why should he just be pleased that something he put hours of work in just be used by a dealer who wants to make money.
So, everyone who talks about Søren that he only wants attention. You are so wrong.

/Lelle

 

[Martin H.]

.

BTW, Peter Kirk and Andrews Smith have also a key to ID Poecilotheria spp. with even more species (probably it's complete) than on the one of Søren. Why are there no "bad" comments, that they haven't shared it with the public yet?


BTW2, there are so many tarantula related mailing lists and message boards with restricted access for "closed communities", for special genders (e. g. "females only"), for so called "advanced Hobbyists" (who like to post without the "Me Too" replies ;-) etc. – nope, I don't want to mention any because I don't want the owners of these lists/groups get mad on me – why are there only comments on Søren's one? One which isn't even as restricted as others are (from one of his mails: "Only invited members can join. This mean that if you wish a person to join or a person want to join I need a reccomendation from a member in order to secure that this person's intentions are sincere. I will then invite the person who can then accept or decline membership. ..." He also wrote that he does not all recognice from their yahoo accounts and may boot some from the list which he knows [like it happened to you Code Monkey]. If this is the case they should send him a mail that he can reinvite them).

And for those who still think that there was no reaction from Søren to the appologies from Jacobi. Here is a part of a mail Søren wrote on the list:

Hi Jacobi

Apologies are accepted.

I see the problem now and understand the need of an easy to use key to
Poecilotheria and as I also mailed you privately that I will make the
PDF public domain after publishment - which I will initiate as we speak.
...

BTW3, who of you knows the "international rules of nomenclatur" (Code Monkey probably?) and what have they to do with this "case"?


BTW4, because of the thieves on the net I have also stopped posting everything I know on the net. I have started to keep new observations/findings private (I discuss them only with a few very close friends) till I have published them in an article. At the moment I write some articles about things things that I have observed and which to my knowledge haven't been published before even some may have observed them too, but haven't recognized that they are "new".
Even my best photos I won't post anymore on my website or a list/board. I keep them private till they have been published in an magazine or journal. Too many have been stolen in the past. =:-( And for journals it isn't interesting printing photos which are accessible everywhere on the net.

Sad that this seem to be the only way to protect ones own work! =:-(

just my two cents!
Martin

 

[Code Monkey]

I'm tired of the "Soren's a great guy, no he's an elitist jerk" stuff, but this crosses the line into more intellectual territory:

Originally posted by Crotalus
Why should he just be pleased that something he put hours of work in just be used by a dealer who wants to make money.

I'm scratching at my head at this one. It seems to be the basis of why Soren got so mad at the posting, and it seems to be a rationale for why his reaction is so understood by some. It's as if the act was judged a far more horrible crime because it was a dealer hosting it just because.

What exactly is the mechanism that a dealer, a dealer who has discovered that he has unwittingly sold at least one misidentified Pokie to a general hobbyist, is going to use a chart, a chart with all authorship and copyright intact, to make money? Jacobi's distribution of that chart into the general hobby could do nothing but cost U.S. dealers money as the scale of the perfidy that has gone on in the past year with at least two species commonly "counterfeited" becomes better known. Please, someone please explain this one.


Furthermore, unlike the more common cases where people steal photos and then erase copyright information, Jacobi tried no such thing and under international copyright that document was Soren's beginning to end, just redistributed without permission. Hence, Soren did have every protection he always did, including asking that it be removed - which it was without argument or rudeness. Ironically, under fair use, if Jacobi had chosen to create his own document for the two species in question and drew up the relevant diagrams based on Soren's document and gave proper citation to Soren, his work would still have been equally "stolen", but it would have been 100% legal since it was published by the legal definitions of the word and any further use of it is controlled by the same copyright laws that allowed Soren to request its removal from Jacobi's website; just something to think about...