Why new people are advised against fast, feistry, OW Ts

[awiec]

Maybe I'm weird, but even when I knew next to nothing about tarantulas(All the infos I got were from bad movies and one guy at a pet store who gave me the usual bad advice minus the sponge when I bought my first one) and even after I've been handling my first G. rosea for months(which I never do anymore since about a decade), I certainly didn't think all tarantulas were the same.
I'd assume a venomous animal is generally bad and not the other way around even if the only one I had experience with was very mellow.

I remember asking for a more aggressive one for my second one and the guy took out a fairly small OBT out and showed me how she attacked by poking it with a pen and I though he was crazy for leaving the container open and doing such a thing.
I always respected her and had very little trouble in all my years with her. I did learn pretty fast that they liked to escape the first chance they get and to always admire her with the lid on when she's not feeding.

It depends from person to person and this is what gets some people in trouble "I'm different, this won't happen to me" and then bam you got owned by an animal with a simple ganglion. I came to this hobby with experience keeping all sorts of invertebrates but I still took it a little slow as I wanted to gauge how much of my wild spider keeping experience would apply to tarantulas. I did end up "going up the ladder" very quickly as I started with arboreal tarantulas and got into OW in about 7-8 months of keeping. Was that wise of me? Some may say no but I can say that I can transfer and do cage maintenance with little issue and haven't had any major incidents besides a sling or two getting spooked and hopping onto my hand or my extra vials. Though when someone asks me for a species suggestion I can only give them advice on the assumption that they have no spider experience what so ever and thus why the "ladder system" is important as I know what the spiders can do but I don't know what you can do. Do I have some spiders that surprise me occasionally? Of course I do, they are wild animals, but the important part is being calm and have control of the situation and those are skills you have to train for.

 

[le-thomas]

I see it like this: when dealing with OWs, you're either taking every possible precaution, or asking for the worst. No matter how much experience one has, there is always a chance of being bitten, and that must always be in the back of one's mind when dealing with these animals.

There are certain species that can serve as OW "training wheels". New Worlders like the Psalmopoeus and some Acanthoscurria can help to prepare the inexperienced/intermediate for speed and defensive behavior, respectively. Some OW species like the Ceratogyrus and Eucratoscelus are a little less "offensive", so it is advisable that intermediate keepers start there. Starting with a sling (or, even better, multiple slings of one species) can help to boost confidence and habituate new keepers to the sometimes unpredictable ways of the OWs. OBTs, H. macs and Pokies are horrifyingly quick and can deliver nasty bites. It's unfortunate that they are sometimes seen as a place to start because of how commonly available they are, but it is what it is.

Really, though, it's all up to the individual; I myself was actively collecting OW species at age 15. Do what you see as the most responsible thing to do in all situations and remember that, should you get bit by or lose a spider, the blame probably falls upon you.

 

[awiec]

I see it like this: when dealing with OWs, you're either taking every possible precaution, or asking for the worst. No matter how much experience one has, there is always a chance of being bitten, and that must always be in the back of one's mind when dealing with these animals.

There are certain species that can serve as OW "training wheels". New Worlders like the Psalmopoeus and some Acanthoscurria can help to prepare the inexperienced/intermediate for speed and defensive behavior, respectively. Some OW species like the Ceratogyrus and Eucratoscelus are a little less "offensive", so it is advisable that intermediate keepers start there. Starting with a sling (or, even better, multiple slings of one species) can help to boost confidence and habituate new keepers to the sometimes unpredictable ways of the OWs. OBTs, H. macs and Pokies are horrifyingly quick and can deliver nasty bites. It's unfortunate that they are sometimes seen as a place to start because of how commonly available they are, but it is what it is.

Really, though, it's all up to the individual; I myself was actively collecting OW species at age 15. Do what you see as the most responsible thing to do in all situations and remember that, should you get bit by or lose a spider, the blame probably falls upon you.

I'm normally all for people going out and making their own mistakes but we currently live in an environment where laws are made due to the stupid all the time. The anti-pet groups would love examples to jump on (which they have quite a few already) to make it where we can own nothing which is why we police ourselves. We don't live in the world were people can make dumb mistakes anymore, everyone gets penalized now.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I'm normally all for people going out and making their own mistakes but we currently live in an environment where laws are made due to the stupid all the time. The anti-pet groups would love examples to jump on (which they have quite a few already) to make it where we can own nothing which is why we police ourselves. We don't live in the world were people can make dumb mistakes anymore, everyone gets penalized now.

I share and support all of you, USA T's enthusiasts, concerns about a T Ban scenario; but as i've said before on another threads, that would be a very unlikely one scenario.. because USA is not Europe but a Federal State Nation. Technically, 50 Nations. I keep using the death penalty example. Why some states have, and some not? That's the question. That would be the same IMO if a hypothetical T's Ban would occur.

A thing like that would be impossible in a European nation, think to have death penalty in northern Italy (or in northern France/Germany etc) and not in the southern part (or viceversa).

To "police ourselves", as you and others (sadly, not so few for me) said, is the N°1 rule but idiots doesn't care.
And that's, notably, one of the reason why here in Italy there's T's fair here and then (last one was days ago) even if a TOTAL T's/Scorpions Ban is still on, from 2003.

No bite reports, except for a skilled breeder from northern Italy bitten by a "Grammo" - for that common error.. got into the underestimate mode, after years of OW'S - in a nation where 70% of enthusiasts (a sort of Elite circle, we are less than 150 in a almost 60 million people nation) owns OW'S, badass ones like Heteroscodra maculata, Pterinochilus "all forms" murinus, Poecilotheria sp. etc

Trust me that here where i live, an OBT (for instance) serious bite like the one i've read here on AB, would have put the "victim" main star of the next day, main, dinner time, national news. Go figure that crickets in a parcel, escaped in a post office, was a new.
Something that doesn't happens in USA, or, at least, not on a so higher level. Hell, some folks had gorillas like Travis, ah ah ah, in their garden!

Anyway.. never say never, things are changing.. doubt that USA is still the land of the free like was decades ago (no flame, please, just my opinion now. I have family (my Mother side) in USA, born American citizens.. i know the nation a bit, i lived in USA months even if my English is a joke).

What i suggest to USA keepers, and NOT only (Poland do you hear me? is to keep an eye about "hots", since seems they are the last fashion. BAD.

What the "arachno community" here did, after the ban, for police ourselves and save the hobby? To put "hots", and potentially hots spiders/scorpions/mygalomorphae, out of the league. This for save, examples, Ephebopus sp. Poecilotheria sp. and so on. IMO a Sicarius hahni, or a Phoneutria sp. aren't worth the risk to lose all of those lovely T's, only because fews wanna cross a red line. Things like that, HELPS.

Because politicians and groups, and angry rants beer parents doesn't EVEN consider the "Mygalomorphae, Teraphosidae, Labidognatha" etc etc differences.. just crap, they ban, a spider is a spider.

Not to mention, in a Ban scenario, the differences about laws etc last time i checked USA was a bit, cough cough, more severe than Italy in general when it comes to security and stuff like that

I mean.. seriously. Here someone under drugs, alcohol, or both, who kills someone who cross white lines with a car, after two years (if he/she is unlucky) drives again. Not always jail.

 

[KristinaMG]

I share and support all of you, USA T's enthusiasts, concerns about a T Ban scenario; but as i've said before on another threads, that would be a very unlikely one scenario.. because USA is not Europe but a Federal State Nation. Technically, 50 Nations. I keep using the death penalty example. Why some states have, and some not? That's the question. That would be the same IMO if a hypothetical T's Ban would occur.

A thing like that would be impossible in a European nation, think to have death penalty in northern Italy (or in northern France/Germany etc) and not in the southern part (or viceversa).

To "police ourselves", as you and others (sadly, not so few for me) said, is the N°1 rule but idiots doesn't care.
And that's, notably, one of the reason why here in Italy there's T's fair here and then (last one was days ago) even if a TOTAL T's/Scorpions Ban is still on, from 2003.

No bite reports, except for a skilled breeder from northern Italy bitten by a "Grammo" - for that common error.. got into the underestimate mode, after years of OW'S - in a nation where 70% of enthusiasts (a sort of Elite circle, we are less than 150 in a almost 60 million people nation) owns OW'S, badass ones like Heteroscodra maculata, Pterinochilus "all forms" murinus, Poecilotheria sp. etc

Trust me that here where i live, an OBT (for instance) serious bite like the one i've read here on AB, would have put the "victim" main star of the next day, main, dinner time, national news. Go figure that crickets in a parcel, escaped in a post office, was a new.
Something that doesn't happens in USA, or, at least, not on a so higher level. Hell, some folks had gorillas like Travis, ah ah ah, in their garden!

Anyway.. never say never, things are changing.. doubt that USA is still the land of the free like was decades ago (no flame, please, just my opinion now. I have family (my Mother side) in USA, born American citizens.. i know the nation a bit, i lived in USA months even if my English is a joke).

What i suggest to USA keepers, and NOT only (Poland do you hear me? is to keep an eye about "hots", since seems they are the last fashion. BAD.

What the "arachno community" here did, after the ban, for police ourselves and save the hobby? To put "hots", and potentially hots spiders/scorpions/mygalomorphae, out of the league. This for save, examples, Ephebopus sp. Poecilotheria sp. and so on. IMO a Sicarius hahni, or a Phoneutria sp. aren't worth the risk to lose all of those lovely T's, only because fews wanna cross a red line. Things like that, HELPS.

Because politicians and groups, and angry rants beer parents doesn't EVEN consider the "Mygalomorphae, Teraphosidae, Labidognatha" etc etc differences.. just crap, they ban, a spider is a spider.

Not to mention, in a Ban scenario, the differences about laws etc last time i checked USA was a bit, cough cough, more severe than Italy in general when it comes to security and stuff like that

I mean.. seriously. Here someone under drugs, alcohol, or both, who kills someone who cross white lines with a car, after two years (if he/she is unlucky) drives again. Not always jail.

Some states have the death penalty because there was enough of a lobby in those states to get it passed. Other states have a stronger liberal party that is anti death penalty. States pass laws all the time. When you read people here worrying about a ban in the US they are thinking about a ban in their particular state, which absolutely could happen. There are already different regulations in different states. You cannot sell Ts in pet stores in the state where my parents live, but you can in mine. I think an often cited example is how certain large snakes are now illegal to own as pets in Florida because a bunch of people thought it was okay to release them outside (n the wild in a place where they are NOT native) when they were tired of keeping them. People like that are responsible for new laws banning those snakes as pets. That is the kind of thing people are worrying about with Ts. If enough people are irresponsible the state will get enough complaints to draft legislation.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree that this will happen from too many bites, but I can see the logic and it seems you don't understand how these laws can and do happen in US states.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Some states have the death penalty because there was enough of a lobby in those states to get it passed. Other states have a stronger liberal party that is anti death penalty. States pass laws all the time. When you read people here worrying about a ban in the US they are thinking about a ban in their particular state, which absolutely could happen. There are already different regulations in different states. You cannot sell Ts in pet stores in the state where my parents live, but you can in mine. I think an often cited example is how certain large snakes are now illegal to own as pets in Florida because a bunch of people thought it was okay to release them outside (n the wild in a place where they are NOT native) when they were tired of keeping them. People like that are responsible for new laws banning those snakes as pets. That is the kind of thing people are worrying about with Ts. If enough people are irresponsible the state will get enough complaints to draft legislation.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree that this will happen from too many bites, but I can see the logic and it seems you don't understand how these laws can and do happen in US states.

Yeah, i know the reasons and what you mean about states laws, but at the same time, the nation is, and remain, one. United States of America, Washington DC, the capital.
That's what, more or less, wanted to say.. that a total, meaning from East coast, Mid west, West coast etc T's ban would be unlikely, unlike here in Europe where the Ban would affect ALL the regions/districts of that particular nation etc.
More probably (in that bad scenario) a state yes, other no, other maybe.. things like that. Not good, granted. But i'd bet that, in that scenario, some States will continue to let the right to people to continue to own T's.
That's what i wanted to say. At least a little bit of solace if in the unwanted case.. some, or few, states will continue to let enthusiasts owns T's.

 

[cold blood]

Its actually even more specific than just states. Certain municipalities ban certain things such as dog breeds or the sale of venomous animals, while the same thing is perfectly legal just down the road. For instance, if I drive 1/2 mile north, pitbulls are a banned animal, but here just a few blocks away, I could have 10 and breed them and sell them. There are also certain places within my state where its not legal to sell tarantulas for instance, but owning them isn't an issue....yet most places within the state are completely unregulated.


But there are federal laws and state laws, which while they may be separate, federal law always trumps state or local laws. So even if something is not regulated in your state specifically, if there is a federal law preventing it, you can be charged despite your state not caring one bit.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Certain municipalities ban certain things such as dog breeds or the sale of venomous animals, while the same thing is perfectly legal just down the road. For instance, if I drive 1/2 mile north, pitbulls are a banned animal, but here just a few blocks away, I could have 10 and breed them and sell them.

Ah ah, that's grotesque!

 

[Solspear]

I'm sure if I had an OW instead of a NW 1 inch T, it wouldn't had died from a measly cricket outside.

 

[lalberts9310]

I'm sure if I had an OW instead of a NW 1 inch T, it wouldn't had died from a measly cricket outside.

I'm not sure what you're actually trying to say, but the conclusion I come to is that you are saying that you think OWs attacks prey with more gutso than NW? In that case your wrong (take pampho's for instance, NW with awesome feeding responses might even be better than that of a poeci) NWs can have just as great feeding responses as some OWs, and some OWs can have just as lousy of a feeding response like that of a G. Rosea, also, did your T die from a cricket? Did you leave a cricket in there while it was molting? That can happen to OWs too. Never ever ever leave live prey items with a T in pre-molt or a molting T. Not a OW not a NW.

 

[BobGrill]

I'm sure if I had an OW instead of a NW 1 inch T, it wouldn't had died from a measly cricket outside.

Well you'd be wrong. A cricket can still harm an old world sling just as much as it a new world sling.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

 

[le-thomas]

I'm sure if I had an OW instead of a NW 1 inch T, it wouldn't had died from a measly cricket outside.

Obvious troll at this point.

 

[BobGrill]

Obvious troll at this point.

I'd say so.

Either way, some of the best eaters out there are NW species. GBB, LP, A.geniculata, etc. My Avicularia are actually better eaters than my Pokies.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

 

[awiec]

Well you'd be wrong. A cricket can still harm an old world sling just as much as it a new world sling.

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The NW might have the upper hand as they at least have hairs to throw at it

I'd say so.

Either way, some of the best eaters out there are NW species. GBB, LP, A.geniculata, etc. My Avicularia are actually better eaters than my Pokies.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

My avics are just as good of eaters as my pamphs, they don't mess around while I have pocies who cower for a while before deciding to eat.

 

[lalberts9310]

My P. Cambridgeis has the best feeding responses in my collection I like how they attack the water, it's the cutest thing I have ever seen

 

[le-thomas]

I'd say so.

Either way, some of the best eaters out there are NW species. GBB, LP, A.geniculata, etc. My Avicularia are actually better eaters than my Pokies.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

I find that my baboons (AKA African species, not just talking about Harpactirinae) have crazy feeding responses, especially the ones with heavy webbing around the entrance of the burrow – the second the prey moves, they react. I also find that some Chilobrachys sp. have intense feeding responses, especially as juvies. My best feeder is probably my big female G. pulchripes, though. Sometimes what we as hobbyists consider the most benign species turn out to be the fiercer predators.

 

[lalberts9310]

I'm sure if I had an OW instead of a NW 1 inch T, it wouldn't had died from a measly cricket outside.

I just read another post from another thread, I now see what you meant. Ai jai jai never feed wild caught prey to your Ts! You don't know where it came from or where it has been, it could've been exposed to pesticides or some other form of chemical that might be why your T is in the state it currently is. And what affects a NW can affect an OW too.

And next time if you have something that concerns you about your Ts, please post a new thread. Don't post questions in 2 or 3 other different threads that is totally irrelevant to your situation.

 

[awiec]

I find that my baboons (AKA African species, not just talking about Harpactirinae) have crazy feeding responses, especially the ones with heavy webbing around the entrance of the burrow – the second the prey moves, they react. I also find that some Chilobrachys sp. have intense feeding responses, especially as juvies. My best feeder is probably my big female G. pulchripes, though. Sometimes what we as hobbyists consider the most benign species turn out to be the fiercer predators.

I've found my Grammostola to be very fierce when it comes to food, they will tackle, not jump, tackle their food. I also have a Thrixopelma who is the most gentle thing ever but knows exactly where I'm throwing food, she is rather dainty about grabbing the food but she gets it before it even hits the ground.

 

[Angel Minkov]

Of all my Ts, my Cyriopagopus sp. "Hati Hati" have the fiercest response, and attitude... 0.5" slings, mouthful of food, yet still threatposing me on the lip of their vials. The best thing is they dont retreat at all... Love them

 

[lalberts9310]

Of all my Ts, my Cyriopagopus sp. "Hati Hati" have the fiercest response, and attitude... 0.5" slings, mouthful of food, yet still threatposing me on the lip of their vials. The best thing is they dont retreat at all... Love them

Mine always retreat, I have seen a threat pose from one of them, but mine are all 1" and still would rather retreat than be confrontational. Little naughties I have a thing for feisty spiders though :biggrin: