Why Wc is Bad!!!

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Wild caught tarantulas are often sold without labels saying they are.
besides eradicating the wild stocks/populations of tarantulas they also can have bad health problems.
for me I’ve been sold one t albo from pet stores that had underlying health issues and didn’t end well it lasted for 1-2months. Depressing and
The rest seem healthy for now but most likely wc.
Anyone else had bad luck?
Or reasons to not support wc

 

[SpookySpooder]

I collect WC critters all the time from my backyard.

Just found this a few days ago in the garden, my first centipede.



It has eaten a few bugs so far and is super interesting to observe, but I'll probably let it go in a couple days.

9/10 of my jumpers have been wild caught.

I'm not gonna say that it's bad or good. Just be responsible and ethical, follow the laws and respect what you're harvesting.

Leave the endangered and protected species in the wild, as we have captive bred stock for that.

Hypothetically, if you collect a black widow from the bushes, it should be a nonissue.

Not gonna touch the whole "wild caught for pet trade" topic with a ten foot pole.

We shouldn't be harvesting wild populations to collapse but we also wouldn't have captive populations if the originals weren't caught in the wild.

Shall we condone the first few collectors and condemn the rest?

 

[Tentacle Toast]

I collect WC critters all the time from my backyard.

Just found this a few days ago in the garden, my first centipede.

View attachment 459115

It has eaten a few bugs so far and is super interesting to observe, but I'll probably let it go in a couple days.

9/10 of my jumpers have been wild caught.

I'm not gonna say that it's bad or good. Just be responsible and ethical, follow the laws and respect what you're harvesting.

Leave the endangered and protected species in the wild, as we have captive bred stock for that.

Hypothetically, if you collect a black widow from the bushes, it should be a nonissue.

I think he's speaking more to the grey wild caught marketplace, than to individual poachers/collectors...

 

[SpookySpooder]

Ah, outside of catching bugs in my backyard my only experience with collection is proper collection under the guidance and supervision of those with permits. Namely I went on a boat to watch my professor talk about, catch and collect, and release marine animals.

I thought about getting a permit myself, but I don't have a boat or any scuba equipment of my own. The only permits I have to collect are hunting tags, and uh, that's not the same thing.

"Fish and Game Code (FGC) sections 1002, 1002.5 and 1003 authorize the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (Department) to issue permits for the take or possession of wildlife, including mammals, birds and the nests and eggs thereof, reptiles, amphibians, fish, certain plants and invertebrates for scientific, educational, and propagation purposes. The Department currently implements this authority through Section 650, Title 14, California Code of Regulations (CCR), by issuing Scientific Collecting Permits (SCP) to take or possess wildlife for such purposes."

In the aquarium hobby, there is rampant "grey area" collection and exportation. I suspect we are the biggest perpetrators of illegal collection and animal trafficking.

(Besides maybe the millionaire exotics crowd)

 

[l4nsky]

IMHO, keeping WC specimens in and of itself is neither good nor bad. What matters is what you plan on doing with those animals.

If you're just wanting a simple pet and go purchase a mass wild caught species to save some money over a CB option or if you're purchasing a rare, WC adult animal with no intentions of breeding it to expand the captive population, then IMO you need to re-evaluate your decisions and the impacts they have. In these situations, by buying WC, you're doing more harm than good and promoting some potentially destructive practices for your own indulgence.

Now, my collection has slowly started to skew towards WC animals these past few years, but as a breeder, I see that as a good thing. WC animals can be difficult to establish in captivity and can come in with a host of issues like parasites, dehydration, etc. I'm more than willing and able to take on these hurdles, establish the specimens, and then hopefully reproduce them in captivity for the average hobbyist if it means I can reduce the collection strain on the wild populations. From a net perspective, I then see the collection of the F0 generation as a productive practice for the species as long as they end up with someone dedicated to expanding the captive population.

 

[Tentacle Toast]

Ah, outside of catching bugs in my backyard my only experience with collection is proper collection under the guidance and supervision of those with permits. Namely I went on a boat to watch my professor talk about, catch and collect, and release marine animals.

I thought about getting a permit myself, but I don't have a boat or any scuba equipment of my own. The only permits I have to collect are hunting tags, and uh, that's not the same thing.

"Fish and Game Code (FGC) sections 1002, 1002.5 and 1003 authorize the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (Department) to issue permits for the take or possession of wildlife, including mammals, birds and the nests and eggs thereof, reptiles, amphibians, fish, certain plants and invertebrates for scientific, educational, and propagation purposes. The Department currently implements this authority through Section 650, Title 14, California Code of Regulations (CCR), by issuing Scientific Collecting Permits (SCP) to take or possess wildlife for such purposes."

In the aquarium hobby, there is rampant "grey area" collection and exportation. I suspect we are the biggest perpetrators of illegal collection and animal trafficking.

(Besides maybe the millionaire exotics crowd)

Adherence to "responsible" collection has probably lead to official extinction. It's easier for a C+ average student to get to the point of writing you prescriptions, than it is for competent animal keepers to access animals they'de be more than
reasonably assured to responsibly propagate ( Incilius periglenes anyone?)..
"Poaching" is the only reason some species are thriving.

 

[birdonfire]

Good and bad unfortunately. All pets were wild caught at some point. But irresponsible harvesting is also detrimental and frequently inhumane.

 

[Denn]

My experiences with WC tend to be either
1. T is normal and healthy, would never know was WC
2. Sold gravid without warning.
3. On occasion, unhealthy, usually dehydration, and on rare occasions short lived.

Always seemed more common buying AF specimens. I mostly raise CB slings these days as find it more rewarding.

I don't know where I stand on the whole WC situation. I guess I have a similar stance as l4nsky above.

 

[Tentacle Toast]

Good and bad unfortunately. All pets were wild caught at some point. But irresponsible harvesting is also detrimental and frequently inhumane.

If markets were more open, tactics would be less aggressive. There will ALWAYS be a supply for demand; the less supply= higher price fetched=higher incentive to poach=more significant risks taken/less regard for collateral damage in collecting.
You're absolutely right, but irresponsible harvesting is ALSO the result of the very regulations meant to suppress it.
Especially in the face of what they'll allow to happen to the very land the species they "protect" exclusively in habits.
The older I get, more I see good-intentioned intervention result in more harm than good.
Strictly my opinion.
I'd rather see living examples in captive collections, than specimens in museums & books.

 

[jbooth]

Yeah they'll let the habitat completely disappear, and the spider, while they keep you from breeding the spider. Gov't for ya. I agree it's about intent, and rarity. If you intend to breed, you want to get WC or as close as possible to help the hobby have better bloodlines. If not, then leave them alone if they are rare or overcollected, and only buy captive bred.

 

[SpookySpooder]

Adherence to "responsible" collection has probably lead to official extinction. It's easier for a C+ average student to get to the point of writing you prescriptions, than it is for competent animal keepers to access animals they'de be more than
reasonably assured to responsibly propagate ( Incilius periglenes anyone?)..
"Poaching" is the only reason some species are thriving.

Yeah, my cousin is one of those C+ pharmacy students. He's a PhD and is going to be chemically engineering your medication in the future. Having grown up with him, watch out is all I can say.

"Poaching" is also the main reason some tropical fish species are extinct in their natural habitat. It goes both ways and we have plenty of examples of both, so it's hard to argue for one or the other.

All in all the issue is very nuanced, but we can all at least agree that the well being of the animal and the continued longevity of the species should be our top priorities when it comes to collection and captivity.

I'd rather see living examples in captive collections, than specimens in museums & books.

Me too. I'd much rather visit a zoo with the last living specimens bred in captivity than see their cadavers in an exhibit.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

Unfortunately what I'm seeing at least with Aphonopelma moderatum are vendors just selling wild caught of the ones selling them.

I'm not seeing anyone actually trying to breed these. I've been asking some breeders and it's either they have none or no captive bred slings for sale. The ones that I have been finding are not slings and not getting any answer back on if they are wc or cb. That leads me to believe wc.

I know in their habitat they are being pillaged. Mostly for the European market but also some are selling here.

 

[Mike Withrow]

It's really all over the place in a lot of ways.
My hopes are that wc spider's fall in the hands of people capable of identifying them and breeding them to establish healthy populations in the hobby.

 

[GarField000]

I am not a big fan off WC. But without it we would not have so many options.
If it is done with respect and all the correct papers and they are pretty new I can understand.
But it would be great if they would go to breeders that will breed them later.

I have seen sellers with 40/50 wc females, but when I asked for a male as well they didn't have any.
you could be lucky it is already paired, but this is just a money making import.

I also don't like it when they import WC specimen if there are so many in the hobby already.
In mexico there are now special projects where they breed spiders and put them back and nature and export a few for the hobby to finance the project.
That's something I can stand fully behind.

But I will not buy a WC A.geniculata while there are so many in the hobby.
First it's not needed, second you can bring in some health issue's in your collection like nematodes.

If you look at the T.albopilosus ... the new 'nicaraque' ones are looking much beter than the one that is in the hobby for a long time.

 

[Tarantuland]

Generally I stay away from them, but if it fits into a breeding project I have then I don't mind if the specimen is healthy. I think the problem is just that people are not aware, most people that will say they'd only buy captive bred will still buy an Avic avic, A seemanni, Curly, S cal, H Mac, H gigas, E murinus, etc and just assume they're not wild caught cuz the vendor also offers other CB species. People also worry about Pokies being WC which is literally not a thing I've ever seen.

Nearly all true spiders, centipedes, vinegaroons, and scorpions are wild caught. It also depends who catches them, who imports them, and whether the vendor sells beat up animals. Someone can have captive bred specimens that look awful and have phorid flies or nematodes, and another vendor can have high quality wild caught species that look great.

This is a bigger issue with vertebrates- due to pathogens and mites.

But I will not buy a WC A.geniculata while there are so many in the hobby.

You won't find one either

Unfortunately what I'm seeing at least with Aphonopelma moderatum are vendors just selling wild caught of the ones selling them.

Most Aphonopelma in the hobby are WC. They grow glacially slow and don't require import.

 

[catboyeuthanasia]

Definitely go cb unless I am planning to breed them myself.

Captive breeding for conservation has a lot of wacky caveats (accidentally making hybrids, selecting for specimens who can't take care of their own young, just not being successful, etc.), but establishing a captive population for species who are or are closely related to animals that have proven to be successful in captivity would be great for conservation.

I've been reading a lot of velvet worm papers lately, and it's a bit sad that each time they need to do a new experiment, they go collect more worms. From what I've read here, the worms should be relatively easy to culture.

 

[Matt Man]

I have rescued multiple Ts from habitat destruction/construction, I release the majority of them. I have kept a few. And I few (MMs) I have brought home, mated with my Mrs and returned to the wild. If I wind up with successful sacs I will release some of them
back into the wild

 

[GarField000]

Nearly all true spiders, centipedes, vinegaroons, and scorpions are wild caught. It also depends who catches them, who imports them, and whether the vendor sells beat up animals. Someone can have captive bred specimens that look awful and have phorid flies or nematodes, and another vendor can have high quality wild caught species that look great.

I know a company that imports WC only. All kinds of animals, hardly any spider. I only saw C.lividius one time on the list. They have a permit for some countries and even on one or 2 they are the solo importer if I must believe his word.
Most animals are hardly found as CB. I don't realy have a problem with that.

You won't find one either

Just curious .... I gave this example as there are so many available, not that I have ever seen any WC
but why are they not available? They don't export them? They are rare in the wild?
It's one off my favo spiders (I have 1.1.1).

 

[Tarantuland]

I know a company that imports WC only. All kinds of animals, hardly any spider. I only saw C.lividius one time on the list. They have a permit for some countries and even on one or 2 they are the solo importer if I must believe his word.
Most animals are hardly found as CB. I don't realy have a problem with that.


Just curious .... I gave this example as there are so many available, not that I have ever seen any WC
but why are they not available? They don't export them? They are rare in the wild?
It's one off my favo spiders (I have 1.1.1).

Because Brazil doesn't export legally. So if any wild caught spiders come from Brazil they're coming illegally. The ones that come through are Typhlochaena, Pachistopelma, Ybyrapora, etc. People aren't going to risk it for a species that has 2600 babies and is well established in captivity

 

[TechnoGeek]

As I said in another thread, parasites are such an important part of any ecosystem that's not managed by humans that it's naive to expect a wild animal not to have at least one kind of parasites. Considering Ts have been bred in captivity for generations by now, it's very possible that they've lost the immunity to certain parasites that wc individuals acquire through natural selection. This means you can grab an infected but asymptomatic wc animal and if you're unlucky enough it could wipe out a decent chunk of your collection.

Or it could just die on you all of a sudden.

For certain animals this isn't such a big deal, like if you grab a wild mantis and keep it in a proper enclosure at home that's totally ok IMHO especially considering that many mantids are actually invasive (Chinese giant mantis in North America). But, this is the exception not the rule. Usually, you're harming the wild population and the ecosystem and endangering the well being of your pets.