Nematodes

[c'est ma]

Cody, this is turning into a very helpful thread. Gonna keep it bookmarked for sure.

Regarding your last post, and the infected Ts' habit of soaking their fangs/bodies in water, one wonders whether soluble antibiotics in the water would be beneficial? Of course, there again you would have the huge unknown of just what concentration to use...

 

[reptist]

Possibly the "smelly" condition is just the bacterial infection and once the worms are involved what they consume stops the infection from smelling or vice versa..... B.

 

[treeweta]

Also back to what you said, yes nematodes do kill a T quickly, but I am not sure as to what your perception of "quickly" is. Because they do usually live another month even at advanced stages. It all depends a lot on the size of your T and I'm sure many other factors.


~Cody

ah, actually discount 'quickly', i suppose 'invaraibly' could be a better term to use.

Possibly the "smelly" condition is just the bacterial infection and once the worms are involved what they consume stops the infection from smelling or vice versa..... B.

at least the smell is a good indicator of a problem, when my spider had the 'non nematode bacterial' infection they had that definite smell, would sit with pedipalps up and also climb the tanks sides almost constantly.

Heres a shot of the abdomen with the brown speckling, this spider has moulted 4 times since but ill again with something like DS as i said before, very frustrating.

Also note the bald tarsi, the tarsi and claws became immovable, almost fused, like there was no movemnet at all between any adjacent joints. This could have been a product of the constant tank climbing with repeated falls to the substrate, back feet first and damaging the tarsi?

 

[SylverTear]

I'm just reading up on this because this is all good information to know.

Code...I wish you the best buddy. I'll say a little prayer for ya! I know if I had that problem I'd hope someone was praying for my T too.

Keep us updated as it progresses. I hope everything turns out ok.

 

[CodeWilster]

Heres a shot of the abdomen with the brown speckling, this spider has moulted 4 times since but ill again with something like DS as i said before, very frustrating.

Hmm, that speckling sure reminds me of a problem I had a while back (it appeared to be much worse though!)...
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=139895&page=2
She never showed signs of bacteria/nematode/anything at all really. I think it was simply a bad molt.
So did she molt that off or did it remain "speckled"? Mine was able to molt the majority of it right off. Be sure to check out page three of that thread link I just put up.

Back to topic, Nematode update:
I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I may have saved/prolonged the life of my T with a treatment as simple as SALT. I kept bringing it up here in the posts but nobody has really had anything to say about it. I mentioned it to the microbiologist, and he/she said that a saline solution was one treatment they were going to try but never actually carried it out. They later told me that it very well could have killed the bulk of the nematodes, and that between that and keeping the ICU very dry, the nematodes and bacteria should be finding it very difficult to survive let alone reproduce.

My salt treatment was as simple as this: I dumped some freshwater aquarium salt into a cup, filled it with tap water, stirred it, tasted it (tasted like the ocean) then dumped it into a spraybottle and aggressivley sprayed the mouthparts of the spider, as well as the sternum and surrounding areas. Unfortunately, I do not think that this would have killed ALL of them, if there are/were any in the anus or book lungs then they should still be thriving. I do not have accurate measurements as to what ratios of salt:water, it was a late-night heat of the moment guessing game for me. I'd estimate it was about 2 parts salt to four, maybe five parts water that I used, I cannot say for sure.

I began to think that the salt solution would have probably hurt and dehydrated the T even worse, however they told me that it is probably no worse than the necrotic bacteria breaking down tissues in the mouth, in fact it is most likely less harmful (in the long term DEFINITELY is). I am going to try the salt solution again today, and we'll keep an eye on her for the next few days. Should the nematodes return, I will begin testing with antibacterials. Either way I hope for the best and pray for good judgement, because the doses are not written solid anywhere and therefore are going to be 100% my own judgement.

~Cody

 

[Smitty78]

I am just throwing out an idea here, but I would not hesitate to try Tetracycline (commonly available in your LPS fish section). I have a ton of Tropical aquarium experience, and have used this many many times. I have also used this is aquariums containing snails which are also invertebrates with no ill effects. If it were me, I would dissolve some in a spray bottle, and spray down your T with it. Possibly even dunking it in a solution of it.

 

[treeweta]

Hmm, that speckling sure reminds me of a problem I had a while back (it appeared to be much worse though!)...
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=139895&page=2
She never showed signs of bacteria/nematode/anything at all really. I think it was simply a bad molt.
So did she molt that off or did it remain "speckled"? Mine was able to molt the majority of it right off. Be sure to check out page three of that thread link I just put up.



~Cody

that speckling, it vanished at the next moult, well the animal had a new covering of hair as normal but revealed skin showed no speckling. ive seen similar much less strong markings (literally just a few little spots here and there on teh addomen)on a Brachypelma emilia i had years ago, she seemed perfectly fine and i put it down to tiny abrasions.

both my juvenile blondis that got 'white paste' got thse dark patches.

 

[Truff135]

Similar Issue...

I have an avic.avic. that just molted over the weekend, and over the past couple days I have noticed that she's acting funny. Sitting in weird positions, mostly her legs curled up or down or whatever, just sort of "sprawled" everywhere. She only uses a couple of her legs at a time, letting the rest just sort of "hang" there. She has a difficult time climbing the tank, and holds her pedipalps underneath her. This morning when I checked on her, she had somehow managed to make it back up to the top of the tube web. However, I did notice a white substance under her fangs. It didn't look "gooey", as I've heard nematodes look like, more like a solid white hard clump of...something. I've been spraying down her tank like crazy, keeping her water full, etc.
As far as her history, I bought her over a year ago at a local pet store as a sub-adult/adult. I fed her crickets maybe once or twice right after buying her, fed her mealworms once or twice after swearing off crickets forever, and since then have fed her nothing but my own b.dubia colony. No other tarantulas have shown any symptoms of illness in the past or presently. Like I said, she just molted about a week ago and I haven't fed her since. I couldn't see her fangs when I checked on her this morning, so is it possible that maybe she lost her fangs in the molt and that the white stuff is dried hemolymph?
I really hope she doesn't have an infection, bacterial or otherwise.
I didn't mean to hijack your thread Code, but I'm just hoping that my predicament will somehow help you, and that maybe someone will have a suggestion for me as well.
Does anyone know how long it takes for nematodes to appear, from initial infection up until the signs of infection (i.e. the white crap on the mouth, hanging/curled peds, etc.). Could it be possible that she had nematodes or bacteria as long as a year ago, and they are just now becoming visible???
I am interested in hearing more about the salt/tetracycline treatments. She isn't really in an accessible area for me to get her out and administer to her, but I'll do what it takes to save her if I can.
Thank you in advance,
~Alexis

 

[wedge07]

Often by the time you actually see the nematodes it is already too late. There are many many threads about this very subject. I hope one can help you, actually I hope you find that you don't have nematodes at all.

 

[CodeWilster]

Hey Alexis. No problem. I should first say that nematodes are an extremely rare misfortune, but usually turn out to be fatal should they find their way to your T. I and others could probably answer all of your questions if you were somehow able to put a nice clear picture up.

How long it takes for the nematodes to show is quite variable, and as someone said, once you see them hanging like strings from the mouth the infection is at a very advanced stage. If your tarantula is already fairly weak, you may see the nematodes appear in a week, or, if your spider is very healthy, it will slow the spread of the nematodes' symbiotic bacteria and therefore it may take a few months.

I am not sure where when and how my tarantula got the nematodes. She was eating when I got her but was a bit dehydrated, and then a couple to three weeks later I noticed the nematodes.

The usuall symptoms of nematodes are pretty normal symptoms for a sick tarantula, they include as I mentioned (respectively); dehydration, fasting, the abdomen begins to shrivel, excessive webbing (the webbing feels sticky and thicker too sometimes) palps are held close to chelicerae and are hardly/not used for balance, chelicerae lock up, white milky goo and stringy wriggling worms can be seen in and around the mouthparts, there is a sweet smell in the enclosure (bacterial waste) and eventually the spider curls and dies. I'm guessing that on average this takes a month or so. Consistent flushing of the mouth will slow this a bit, and a saline solution aggressively applied to the mouthparts will probably dehydrate the T quicker but it will kill the bulk of the external worms and bacteria.

I would not get too paranoid though as nematodes are a rare problem. As for tetracyline, I do not know how effective it would be. Only some antibiotics are able to kill all of the bacteria living in various areas of the spider (not just the mouth parts) and some are too harsh to use. Don't forget we are talking about spiders here!!!

I honestly think that I cured my spider of nematodes using a saline solution and a single treatment of SMZ. However, the thing has been sick a few weeks now and I know the treatments were very hard on her. So, nematodes are gone, now she just needs to recover. We'll see what happens...

 

[MizM]

We have successfully treated nematodes and the symbiotic bacterial infection with Cipro.

 

[CodeWilster]

We have successfully treated nematodes and the symbiotic bacterial infection with Cipro.

Do you have a link or details? (how many Ts were treated and survived, dosages, etc)

 

[MizM]

Success and failures about equal in my experience. I can't exactly say that the Cipro worked, but that's the only thing I did differently with an infected T that survived. Also used by others are DMSO, Baytril and some others. It's been a while, but here are some references:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=64867&highlight=cipro
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=23172&highlight=cipro
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=22586&highlight=cipro

This one has some very good reading related to nematodes and everyone should take the time to read it.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=14024&highlight=cipro

 

[CodeWilster]

Those are awesome links, thank you!!! And yes I am familiar with the DMSO. I was going to use it with the SMZ as a piggyback but I (and being told by Bodisky) decided to not use it as it might just be too strong for my spider's condition.

If you didn't catch that in the above sentence, Bodisky (link two above) is the person I have been contacting. Kerry has since left the hobby but was willing to help me out. Kerry was VERY helpful. I was going to put up all of the treatments I found but didn't want to open my mouth until I knew they were legit. Seems like most are though. The others I found seemed to have a better outcome than the ones you mention though. I have found one thing consistent though and that is that most of the meds will kill the T once the nematodes have reached a certain stage.

Here was another treatment a friend (Maya) dug up for me:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=809934&postcount=36

The original poster of that was Dr. zuum. I'm pretty sure he's history right now though (long out of the hobby) I tried contacting him but no luck. There is a lot of controversy as to who created that. I certainly didn't!!! But I don't know who did. For those interested, I can tell you where to get the majority of those antibiotics. The ones listed are ALL antibiotics. The polymixin b is an antibiotic used in neosporin, etc. You'll probably have to get it from the vet. The neomycin sulfate is used to treat "wet tail" (cold/diarrhea) in rodents, and therefore can be found or special ordered at your LPS. The maracyn 2 is a broad spectrum antibacterial, and it is an aquarium fish medication. You can buy the exact stuff you need in powder form at pretty much any pet store. The oxylinic acid is kind of a weird one. The only info I could find about it is that it is effective against a rare flesh-eating bacteria among lake malawi cichlids (fish). So, a pet store may be able to get it but I'm sure you would have to get it from the vet too.

Bodisky (Kerry) recommended either the above treatment or the treatment I am using composed of SMZ and DMSO. The latter seemed to produce better results among tests and we'll see if my T can add to the positive side of those statistics.

I can say myself that a simple saline solution (Ts in bad shape need it light, similar to the solution used for contact lenses, or, if the T seems to be hydrated and is a good size, then a solution of about 1 part salt to three/four parts water) This is what I did for my T and although I do not think it got ALL of the nematodes, it probably took care of the vast majority.

I should say that later on if anybody decides to treat their Ts for nematodes do not rely completely on these medications in any form listed here. The dosages, meds, amount of treatments, etc, are completely up to ones's own judgement. They will all vary according to the Ts size, condition, etc and this is probably why they have not yet been set in stone. I will say that a good majority of spiders with nematodes that were treated early, according to statistics, most of the treatments listed above were very effective. Again, dosages and treatments are a hit and miss kind of situation.

 

[MizM]

The "Doc" Zuum sent me his exact formulae and delivery methods, but I printed it out, deleted it, and all of my belongings are in storage right now. Kerry, along with R.I.E.S.M., has done extensive research on the subject and is a great source of info.

The saline is news to me, and I will definitely keep it in mind. Other treatments can be prohibitively expensive, but are necessary once the infection is apparent in the mouth parts.

Through my experiences with the dreaded 'todes, I now keep my enclosures bone-dry, and have not had a case of them since I started this practice. Let's hope it stays that way!

 

[Paramite]

As far as I know, there's never been a single case of nematodes here in Finland, even though there's plenty of WC tarantulas. So I'm thinking that it probably depends where you live in? All the cases I've read about happened in US or somewhere close by.

Edit: Actually this seems quite logical to me. We don't have anything even close to tarantulas in the wild, so there also isn't any parasites that specifically attack them.

 

[Truff135]

Thanks for the above post re: my question, Code.

An update on Gypsy: as of last night, the white crust appears to be gone, I saw her drinking mist from the side of her tank, she's using her legs and pedipalps as normal. I'm pretty baffled because it looks like she's done a 180 between yesterday morning and last night/today. I can't say I'm unhappy, of course, just a bit confused. I'm keeping a very close eye on her, and will try to keep everyone posted.

 

[jbm150]

Here's a question about nematodes:

Has anyone heard of a nematodes being transferred to Ts via crickets fed produce?

I know nematodes are naturally in soil and they're also used to help control grubs. I'm not sure how extensively our agricultural systems use them but I feed my crickets spinach, fruits, and such rather than buying cricket food. While its probably not a probable mode of infection, has it's possibility been explored? I might just switch to cricket food just so it can't be an issue.

 

[BrianWI]

I don't think an antibiotic alone would cure the nematode problem. Maybe a T can fight the nematodes once the bacterial infection is gone, but I think the nematodes would have no ill effects due to an antibiotic.

In another thread I asked if T's could withstand certain wormers, like Ivermectin, piprazole, etc. I don't know enough T physiology to answer that myself.

One other medication that comes to mind is Hygromycin B. Its an antibiotic and wormer. Curious if it may have some beneficial effect. I don't know how you get it specifically, but you can by Triple Action Rooster Booster wormer that contains it and bacitracin. Maybe it could be dissolved in water and used?

If anyone has an infection and could try these and post back, I maybe something useful could be found.

 

[CodeWilster]

I don't think an antibiotic alone would cure the nematode problem. Maybe a T can fight the nematodes once the bacterial infection is gone, but I think the nematodes would have no ill effects due to an antibiotic.

In another thread I asked if T's could withstand certain wormers, like Ivermectin, piprazole, etc. I don't know enough T physiology to answer that myself.

One other medication that comes to mind is Hygromycin B. Its an antibiotic and wormer. Curious if it may have some beneficial effect. I don't know how you get it specifically, but you can by Triple Action Rooster Booster wormer that contains it and bacitracin. Maybe it could be dissolved in water and used?

If anyone has an infection and could try these and post back, I maybe something useful could be found.

It's been discussed throughout this thread that the nematodes that infect Ts have a symbiotic bacteria. Therefore, this means that the nematodes depend on the bacteria to thrive. You kill the bacteria, (antibiotics) you kill the nematodes. Just like the bacteria in herbivores that breaks down cellulose, the nematodes are partners with the bacteria. And yeah nematodes are a branch of roundworms but I think that a "wormer" would be too harsh for the T. It would almost be pointless unless you used it in congruence with an antibiotic, as it is this bacteria that is actually the biggest killer. It is necrotic, eating away tissue in the mouthparts. If you killed just the nematodes, the bacteria would carry on just without any buddies to feed, if you will. So the problem is that although the nematodes depend on the bacteria to carry out their lives and reproduction while in the host, it is not exactly vice versa.

To the person who brought up the nematodes in vegetables-->crickets-->tarantula hypothesis, presents a very good point. I am too focused on what to do with my sick T but I did for a bit consider causes including this one. Reason being, is that nematodes can be beneficial for agriculture. I know that there are parasitic nematodes introduced into soils, that prey on arthropods. This is a form of biological, agriculture pest control, and therefore these nematodes that specialize in parasitizing arthropods could be on/in the leafy greens and veggies we caring T keepers gut load our crickets with. Therefore, this could be where they are derived. Only problem is that just adds another plausible cause to a growing list.