Nematodes

[treeweta]

It's been discussed throughout this thread that the nematodes that infect Ts have a symbiotic bacteria. Therefore, this means that the nematodes depend on the bacteria to thrive. You kill the bacteria, (antibiotics) you kill the nematodes. Just like the bacteria in herbivores that breaks down cellulose, the nematodes are partners with the bacteria. And yeah nematodes are a branch of roundworms but I think that a "wormer" would be too harsh for the T. It would almost be pointless unless you used it in congruence with an antibiotic, as it is this bacteria that is actually the biggest killer. It is necrotic, eating away tissue in the mouthparts. If you killed just the nematodes, the bacteria would carry on just without any buddies to feed, if you will. So the problem is that although the nematodes depend on the bacteria to carry out their lives and reproduction while in the host, it is not exactly vice versa.

To the person who brought up the nematodes in vegetables-->crickets-->tarantula hypothesis, presents a very good point. I am too focused on what to do with my sick T but I did for a bit consider causes including this one. Reason being, is that nematodes can be beneficial for agriculture. I know that there are parasitic nematodes introduced into soils, that prey on arthropods. This is a form of biological, agriculture pest control, and therefore these nematodes that specialize in parasitizing arthropods could be on/in the leafy greens and veggies we caring T keepers gut load our crickets with. Therefore, this could be where they are derived. Only problem is that just adds another plausible cause to a growing list.

from what im reading it also sounds like spiders can get the bacteria (white paste, sweet smell) without the nematodes and still be affected, that happened in my case to each of four blondis, 2 slings died within 48 hours of symptoms, two juveniles pulled through.

 

[MizM]

from what im reading it also sounds like spiders can get the bacteria (white paste, sweet smell) without the nematodes and still be affected, that happened in my case to each of four blondis, 2 slings died within 48 hours of symptoms, two juveniles pulled through.

Did you have them autopsied? Usually, the nematodes are not readily apparent, by the time they are visible at the mouth area, the entire body is infested. There are a couple of folks I can contact if you don't have someone who can perform and autopsy for you.

 

[BrianWI]

I looked into this a bit, not much has been studied, but did find a bit of one published on it. It seems unclear the status of the bacteria, but rather than being symbiotic, it is rather more likely it is just taking advantage of the situation by infesting a T with an already weakened immune system. There may be no direct relationship to the nematodes. If this is true, then the antibitoic route will not work unless it allows the T's own systems to recover enough to fight the nematodes. Since I have already seen many failures posted using only antibiotics, I would still be trying other thingss. hygromycin b, as I said earlier, would be one candidate that could treat both, which really may be the best solution of all.

Different wormers use different actions to kill or paralyze the nematodes. It may be found that one will affect the worms a great deal more than the T's systems. But it will take trial and error since I cannot find T psyiology detailed enough to make any guess.

 

[CodeWilster]

"Three genera of insect pathogenic nematodes are known to have specific symbiotic associations with bacteria: Neoaplectana spp. and Heterorhabditis spp. are associated with Xenorhabdus spp. (Thomas & Poinar, 1979) and Steinernema kraussei with a Flavobacterium sp. (Mrdcek, 1977). Each species of nematode is associated with a single bacterial species; all Heterorhabditis spp. examined have Xenorhabdus luminescens as the symbiont but each species of Neoaplectana is associated with a different species of bacterium (R. J. Akhurst, unpublished results). The bacterial symbiont is carried monoxenically in the intestine of the non-feeding infective stage of the nematode. The nematode penetrates an insect host and moves to the haemocoel where it voids the bacteria. The bacteria proliferate, kill the host and establish suitable conditions for reproduction of the nematodes by providing nutrients and inhibiting the growth of other bacteria (Poinar & Thomas, 1966). The symbiotic bacteria are also capable of rendering a wide variety of artificial media suitable for nematode reproduction, thus allowing the economical mass production of the nematodes (Bedding, 1976) necessary for the control of insect pests in the field During a study of the bacterial symbionts of many isolates of several species of Neoaplectana and Heterorhabditis from Australia, Europe, New Zealand and North America, I found that all may produce two forms of colony on agar media. The results of an investigation into the significance of and the relationships between the two forms of X. nematophilus, the symbiont of N. feltiae, are presented in this paper... "

R. J. AKHURST
Journal of General Microbiology 121:303-309 (1980)

( http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/nguyen/morph/biology/XENOPHOT.htm )

 

[BrianWI]

I have read that and, unfortunately,being a different nematode, may or may not apply.

Technical Abstract: Oral nematode infection of Theraphosidae spiders, known as tarantulas, has been recently identified from several collections in the UK and mainland Europe. The disease has also been seen in captive and wild spiders from the Americas, Asia and Africa. Spider symptoms are described from anorexia until death, weeks to months later. The male and female nematodes may reach 3 mm in length, and are identified as belonging to family Panagrolaimidae (Phylum Nemata, Order Rhabditida). Although spread may occur within the same room, source and mode of transmission are unknown. Secondary bacterial infection and zoonosis are possibilities.

Also, some other articles on this (Google books, can't get text easily to quote) mentioned a few things on these particular strains. They noted a symbiotic OR opportunistic secondary bacterial infection, but did not determine if fighting the bacteria alone would suffice to kill the worms. And the common "zoles" failed to kill the worms (aka Panacur and the like). Symbiotic, after all, DOES NOT mean dependant. Will killing the bacteria kill the worm? Will it only stop reproduction? Will the worms harbor enough bacteria to recolonize the T? Will the worm load itself still kill the T? Do the bacteria need the worm other than to colonize the T? Can both kill the T?

All those questions outstanding, it means all should be answered at some point. HOWEVER, I would start by controlling both (H.B. still appeals to my thought process) and save as many as one can. Several sources warn that this may be a concern in the future as incidences are rising (we often propagate diseases and parasites with our hobbies).

In any case, it would be naive at best to hang your hat on antibiotics alone at this point, especially since I have now read of many instances where that failed.

 

[CodeWilster]

Will killing the bacteria kill the worm?

In this case, YES THE WORM NEEDS THE SYMBIOTIC BACTERIA. According to the studies performed by Bodisky at RIESM, the nematodes depend on the bacteria to break down the spider's immune system and tissues, and then depend on them for food AND reproduction.

Will it only stop reproduction?

See above.

Will the worms harbor enough bacteria to recolonize the T?

The proper antibiotic should prevent this.

Will the worm load itself still kill the T?

Possibly, especially if the infection is at a highly advanced stage. If not, then the nematodes will not have the means to survive and would therefore quickly die off.

Do the bacteria need the worm other than to colonize the T?

The bacteria probably need the worm as a way to get to the T but the bacteria can most definitely survive by itself without the worm.

Can both kill the T?

Yup.

Kerry told me that the nematodes that have been killing the spiders have not yet been concretely identified yet. Additionally, there is a chance it is not only one species/genus that is infecting them.

I am interested in why you doubt the antibiotics as a cure for the nematodes. If one was too look at the treatments listed throughout this thread, many Ts were cured of the problem by antibiotics, not wormers (not that they wouldn't). The one I put a link up of, said that about 65% of the spiders treated lived on without any signs of nematodes. The specimens that died (other 35%) were simply too infected and weakened to be able to handle the medications/further infection. Therefore, about 100% of spiders that were not treated too late, survived and were cured.

My pinktoe has not shown any signs of nematodes since that one day I discovered them and gave her the salt "bath". I treated her with diluted SMZ and she is still hanging in there. We'll see if she can "unlock" her fangs soon and possibly eat...

 

[BrianWI]

I have gone well beyond this thread looking at many boards, articles, books, etc. Going by those, the "cure" of antibiotics does not look promising (or some womrers, either).

When you hear some things, you have to take it with a grain of salt. Were they REALLY nematodes in all cases in this thread? Hard to say, I'd want them positively known to be "worms", not just a white mass. Relative levels of infection are also hard to gauge. Its easy to conclude it was "too late" when death is the only determining factor.

Basically, I will follow the scientific evidence before relying to much on witness accounts. Post a link to this study by Bodisky at RIESM

 

[CodeWilster]

Here is ONE e-mail Kerry sent me. You are right as far as what research is truely accurate, but with Kerry's ethics I find it hard to not believe anything I'm told. If I had to pick between a microbiologist that conducted experiments on nematodes, and a T collector/hobbyist, I would choose the microbiologist. Actually come to think of it, Kerry was both. Here's the e-mail:

Cody,
Our research at RIESM was two pronged. My associate Larry Boyd did extensive bacterial and fungal analysis concerning the nematode physiologically as well as its surrounding environment of bacteria that it needs to survive and multiply. In plain terms, the goo in which it lives is as equally as deadly to the T as the nematode itself.
My job was to observe, treat and dissect. In dissection I traced the pathway of the nematode. For the most part I believe it starts in and around the mouth as it is the perfect environment for the nematode to thrive. I have taken microscopic (polarized) pictures of a nematode curled up in cheliceral tissue. The bacterial aforementioned "goo" necrotizes surrounding tissue. I have also found nematodes present in the book lungs and in the tissues of the abdomen. A definite answer as to how these nematodes are entering the T is still debated and unknown. Where the nematode is coming from is also hotly debated but as yet unproven.
So that being said I will tell you what I did for treatment. First my hospital tanks held only vermiculite kept dry. Vermiculite is desiccating to the nematode. A nematode must have moisture to survive. Most nematodes live in dirt. An infested T will seek to soak their mouths and sometimes their entire body in water for hours. Therefore, I would only put in a water dish in a couple of nights a week removing it in the am. When T's soak their mouths in their water the nematodes survive in that water for a day or so. Do not put anything else in the tank. If the T needs a hide away use something plastic and not organic.
It sounds like you are comfortable with handling your T's. Paint their mouth using SMZ. This antibiotic is broad spectrum and effective according to my experience and to Larry's analysis of bacteria present in nematode infestation. I have also used DMSO as a piggy back for the SMZ to penetrate cheliceral tissue. I used this on a B. smithi that survived and lived to maturity as a male. I presented that particular case at an ATS convention. Proper dosage was never written in stone and varied on a case to case basis. Hit and miss. If you want to follow the 4 oz distilled water suggestion with antibiotics that is fine. I am just telling you what I did.
Also, with respect to what you saw on your smear. IME smears always yielded several stages of nematodes. Infectious juves to gravid females. No one believed me at first when I told them that until they saw my pictures.
So, set up your hospital tanks ASAP. Dryness is key as well as persistence in treatment.
If you need anything else let me know. I am happy to assist you.
Kerry

BTW I wouldn't be runing my mouth with info learned hands-on and from a microbiologist that couldn't identify what a nematode was.

 

[BrianWI]

Where is the complete study? Where did it show the bacteria was symbotic AND the loss of it a cause of death to the worms? I am not seeing this data....

In fact, I looked over posts from this person and noticed they believe antibiotics and wormers would be necessary....

 

[CodeWilster]

Where is the complete study? Where did it show the bacteria was symbotic AND the loss of it a cause of death to the worms? I am not seeing this data....

In fact, I looked over posts from this person and noticed they believe antibiotics and wormers would be necessary....

The rest of the info I have in several e-mails. I am NOT going to post all of them. I will ask Kerry personally your questions, man. I never said that a wormer would not work, but if antibiotics are proven to work then why agonize the T with an another medication? Unless some form of wormer can be found that is harmless to the T and proves to be more effective than the antibiotics, I'm going to stick to what has been experimented with and resulted in various amonts of success. I'd love to experiment but right now I'm just working on saving my T. Back when I posted this everyone was saying this poor thing was toast and to just chuck it into the freezer. Give Kerry some time to contact me again and I'll hopefully be able to put up an informative post or better yet some links.

 

[BrianWI]

The problem is one where your interpretation is not matched by the information supplied. That makes the conclusions less than proven out. We don't even know really if your T had nematodes and if it did, we have no reasonable evidence to suggest now whether it still does or not, and if not, why they were eliminated. Since all other bodies of evidence inside documented studies differes from your conclusion, one has to question it.

 

[CodeWilster]

The problem is one where your interpretation is not matched by the information supplied. That makes the conclusions less than proven out. We don't even know really if your T had nematodes and if it did, we have no reasonable evidence to suggest now whether it still does or not, and if not, why they were eliminated. Since all other bodies of evidence inside documented studies differes from your conclusion, one has to question it.

I understand completely. But if I had that mind-set from the beginning, I would not have put up this thread and posts, my spider would be frozen, and you'd be posting elsewhere. I will do my best to get concrete numbers/evidence from the sources I have, for not just you but everyone who questions any of this.

 

[BrianWI]

Thats another good point, you went from asking the question to giving us the answer in a week's time frame. Must be a quick study....

 

[CodeWilster]

Thats another good point, you went from asking the question to giving us the answer in a week's time frame. Must be a quick study....

That's because the people posting didn't exactly have any answers, they basically brought up more questions, like you. I was able to directly contact a source with at least some answers, therefore I put them up. It does not take a week to get an e-mail, or two, or five, dude. Kerry got back to me in a day. I went outside of the boards to get the answers and so this is why it seems like I answered my own questions, but that is only because the two people I got answers from do not post here. I put the answers up because this is an on going issue and I knew others would be interested.

As far as my own experiments are going, I have been posting what is seemingly going on. I never said salt works, but a week later there is not a single trace of goo nor worms, that were both apparent before the salt and then SMZ treatment. I understand your questioning as far Kerry's credibility goes and demanding exact numbers/details. We will see if this person can produce what you want although I am sure others would be interested by now too. I'm not going to sit here and wait for an e-mail back from Kerry though, nor am I going to sit here fighting for ethics.... Sunday's are my only day off.

 

[Jeff_C]

Children, Children, Children, please stay on topic and leave out the personal attacks otherwise an otherwise interesting topic thread will be closed and infractions will be handed out.

Thank you,
Jeff
AB Team Member

 

[Draiman]

May I ask a question on this thread and not be called a hijacker?

Well, here it is. I have a 3.5" female OBT. Her last meal was 2 or 3 days ago (a superworm), prior to that, she'd eaten 2 crickets. They are the only things she has eaten so far, in my care. Since yesterday, she has been very restless, pacing around the enclosure non-stop. Isn't this a sign of nematode infection? Also, she seems to be losing balance, and has also apparently lost the use of her chelicerae - when I tried to feed her, she struck at the prey item without moving her fangs at all. There is, however, no white stuff in and around her mouth, though the red bristles around her chelicerae do look a little wet - on a dry tarantula, the red bristles would look like that of a normal toothbrush. On my tarantula, the red bristles look like the tip of a wet paintbrush. Is this a sure case of nematodes?

Also, I had a case of nematode-infested crickets yesterday, but I threw them all away and she didn't eat a single one of them. However it might be important to add that before I knew the crickets were contaminated, I had tried to feed her with them, and a couple of them came into contact with her (more specifically, her front legs). Could the nematodes have been transmitted this way?

 

[CodeWilster]

May I ask a question on this thread and not be called a hijacker?

Well, here it is. I have a 3.5" female OBT. Her last meal was 2 or 3 days ago (a superworm), prior to that, she'd eaten 2 crickets. They are the only things she has eaten so far, in my care. Since yesterday, she has been very restless, pacing around the enclosure non-stop. Isn't this a sign of nematode infection? Also, she seems to be losing balance, and has also apparently lost the use of her chelicera - when I tried to feed her, she struck at the prey item without moving her fangs at all. There is, however, no white stuff in and around her mouth, though the red bristles around her chelicerae do look a little wet - on a dry tarantula, the red bristles would look like that of a normal toothbrush. On my tarantula, the red bristles look like the tip of a wet paintbrush. Is this a sure case of nematodes?

Also, I had a case of nematode-infested crickets yesterday, but I threw them all away and she didn't eat a single one of them. However it might be important to add that before I knew the crickets were contaminated, I had tried to feed her with them, and a couple of them came into contact with her (more specifically, her front legs). Could the nematodes have been transmitted this way?

Hello Hijacker )) I don't think you should get too worked up about these things as they are actually pretty rare. I've seen small clear nematodes in substrate along with mites eating decaying crickets I missed when checking all the tanks. I wonder if they are the same kind that are parasitic to Ts. This happened with my H. gigas enclosure and the thing carried on eating and molted just recently. I cleaned the tank after seeing them but I'm sure she had come into contact with them at some point. Like I said I would not get too paranoid. Nematodes aren't the only tarantula illness. Give it a couple weeks and keep trying to feed her. I'm sure with an OBT you have the substrate pretty dry. If not, keep it as dry as possible. Change the water bowl daily too (half this info you could take straight from the e-mail from Kerry I posted above). Also, if she ate 2-3 days ago I have a feeling she is fine. Spiders often have very strange eating patterns (especially adults and WC adults). Check her daily though. Nematodes can hit fast but in a day or so that seems a bit too quick. As far as how nematodes get transmitted, I do not know the specifics. Plenty of people have said that they are spread through phorid flies, crickets, etc. A simple "touch" I do not know if that would be enough for them to get infected. The chances must be pretty low. Don't forget the 10-second rule lol Good luck and let us know.

 

[wedge07]

I posted this in another thread and think it is a good idea:

Many people have been saying nematodes are species specific. Does it not make sense to create a thread specifically for nematode outbreaks stating the species of T, day/time of outbreak, and potential treatment plus any additional information the owner can provide. This way we can monitor what species, if any, are more prone to nematodes, if occurrences are more prevalent during a given season, and we can monitor what treatments are working and which are not. This is the only feasible way we can possible come up with a real treatment for these nasty little buggers.

 

[Endagr8]

If nematodes are so species-specific, then how can they be transported on crickets or flies for a significant amount of time without food? How long should these nematode transportation units be quarantined before any nematodes present would die of starvation/dessication?

 

[Draiman]

Hello Hijacker )) I don't think you should get too worked up about these things as they are actually pretty rare. I've seen small clear nematodes in substrate along with mites eating decaying crickets I missed when checking all the tanks. I wonder if they are the same kind that are parasitic to Ts. This happened with my H. gigas enclosure and the thing carried on eating and molted just recently. I cleaned the tank after seeing them but I'm sure she had come into contact with them at some point. Like I said I would not get too paranoid. Nematodes aren't the only tarantula illness. Give it a couple weeks and keep trying to feed her. I'm sure with an OBT you have the substrate pretty dry. If not, keep it as dry as possible. Change the water bowl daily too (half this info you could take straight from the e-mail from Kerry I posted above). Also, if she ate 2-3 days ago I have a feeling she is fine. Spiders often have very strange eating patterns (especially adults and WC adults). Check her daily though. Nematodes can hit fast but in a day or so that seems a bit too quick. As far as how nematodes get transmitted, I do not know the specifics. Plenty of people have said that they are spread through phorid flies, crickets, etc. A simple "touch" I do not know if that would be enough for them to get infected. The chances must be pretty low. Don't forget the 10-second rule lol Good luck and let us know.

Awesome, thanks for the reply. It turns out I was probably just paranoid, because I just saw her cleaning her legs with her chelicerae, so they are evidently not paralysed. I won't be taking any chances with the nematodes. I just finished spraying everything in the area with disinfectant, even the inside of my centipedes' tank (a couple of them ate the nematode-infected crickets). If I have to kill my centipedes to save my OBT, I will quite gladly do so. I'll be keeping the substrate dry in all of my invert enclosures (they all have water dishes so desiccation is not a concern) as well as not feeding at all, to eliminate phorid flies. I did see one phorid fly in the centipede enclosure earlier, and that was what prompted me to spray the disinfectant. I hope it's dead now. I'm now seriously contemplating destroying all the centipedes and everything in their enclosure, in order to destroy the nematodes and phorid flies in them. Though I've kept the centipedes for months and they were once my pride and joy...