Nematodes

[wedge07]

If nematodes are so species-specific, then how can they be transported on crickets or flies for a significant amount of time without food? How long should these nematode transportation units be quarantined before any nematodes present would die of starvation/dessication?

I really doubt they are all that species specific. They are more specialized as far as parasites go. Crickets and flies are just vectors for nematodes. I am not sure if anyone really knows how long they live or how long they can go without food. That's what makes them so hard to treat, also not all nematodes are parasites and some are actually beneficial. There really isn't enough research for us to determine the difference between the beneficial ones and the bad ones. Though the ones that are related to our Ts are most assuredly bad. There is also evidence that there is more to it than just nematodes, there is also a bacteria that first breaks down the T's immune system.

 

[Thompson08]

Does she hold her pedipalps abnormaly under her body?

May I ask a question on this thread and not be called a hijacker?

Well, here it is. I have a 3.5" female OBT. Her last meal was 2 or 3 days ago (a superworm), prior to that, she'd eaten 2 crickets. They are the only things she has eaten so far, in my care. Since yesterday, she has been very restless, pacing around the enclosure non-stop. Isn't this a sign of nematode infection? Also, she seems to be losing balance, and has also apparently lost the use of her chelicerae - when I tried to feed her, she struck at the prey item without moving her fangs at all. There is, however, no white stuff in and around her mouth, though the red bristles around her chelicerae do look a little wet - on a dry tarantula, the red bristles would look like that of a normal toothbrush. On my tarantula, the red bristles look like the tip of a wet paintbrush. Is this a sure case of nematodes?

Also, I had a case of nematode-infested crickets yesterday, but I threw them all away and she didn't eat a single one of them. However it might be important to add that before I knew the crickets were contaminated, I had tried to feed her with them, and a couple of them came into contact with her (more specifically, her front legs). Could the nematodes have been transmitted this way?

 

[CodeWilster]

I posted this in another thread and think it is a good idea:...

I think that is a superb idea, wedge07. I do not think it would help with what species kill what Ts because they probably affect all Ts but that would still be cool because it would give us an idea on how "rare" this problem really is. People could list treatments and their experiences as well. Come to think of it, if this site had a section just for T illnesses (like breeding/bite reports sections) then everybody could post it there. Diseases could be categorized, subjects could be labeled "cured" or "died" lol, etc. Am I getting too carried away or do you guys think that would be helpful? Heck if the nematode experiments were listed there then there would be no need for this thread!

Awesome, thanks for the reply. It turns out I was probably just paranoid, because I just saw her cleaning her legs with her chelicerae, so they are evidently not paralysed. I won't be taking any chances with the nematodes. I just finished spraying everything in the area with disinfectant, even the inside of my centipedes' tank (a couple of them ate the nematode-infected crickets). If I have to kill my centipedes to save my OBT, I will quite gladly do so. I'll be keeping the substrate dry in all of my invert enclosures (they all have water dishes so desiccation is not a concern) as well as not feeding at all, to eliminate phorid flies. I did see one phorid fly in the centipede enclosure earlier, and that was what prompted me to spray the disinfectant. I hope it's dead now. I'm now seriously contemplating destroying all the centipedes and everything in their enclosure, in order to destroy the nematodes and phorid flies in them. Though I've kept the centipedes for months and they were once my pride and joy...

Just don't jump to conclusions and regret it later!!! If I were you I would simply move the pedes as far away as possible, starting now, to get a head start. Load them up on other food while they are eating and IF they show signs of the worms then...it's up to you. Go through the stress of handling and guessing treatments to maybe save its life, or send them to pede heaven.

 

[Draiman]

Does she hold her pedipalps abnormaly under her body?

Can you describe what is considered "abnormal"? Otherwise I have no idea what to look out for.

 

[CodeWilster]

Can you describe what is considered "abnormal"? Otherwise I have no idea what to look out for.

Your T is probably fine don't worry, what he was asking was if the T holds the palps underneath the fangs. When the infestation gets bad, they kind of hang their palps underneath their fangs and no longer use them for balance, walking, etc. They are practically immobile just like the chelicerae when the worms get that bad.

Oh and I was diggin around and found these pics. THIS is when you have to worry!!!!
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83915

My Avic only had a very small fraction of that. Awesome pics but that is one unfortunate T.

 

[Thompson08]

Her pedipalps Are all the way under her body. When you move the cage she keeps them tucked.

Your T is probably fine don't worry, what he was asking was if the T holds the palps underneath the fangs. When the infestation gets bad, they kind of hang their palps underneath their fangs and no longer use them for balance, walking, etc. They are practically immobile just like the chelicerae when the worms get that bad.

Oh and I was diggin around and found these pics. THIS is when you have to worry!!!!
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83915

My Avic only had a very small fraction of that. Awesome pics but that is one unfortunate T.

You can never be to sure. If it is nematodes you don't want to play around with them.

 

[bodisky]

I am breaking my rule and posting on an internet board. I need my head examined.
First...
THERE IS NO COMPLETE STUDY BY RIESM.
RIESM was the first to do this kind of research and we were funding it with our own money to help the hobbyist. We could not sustain that and sadly it all ended due to lack of funds. If you want to continue this research knock yourself out and bring LOTS of cash. But be prepared to be flamed for doing so. I am helping Cody out using what we found during our research and my personal experience. If that's not enough for you, sorry.
Hats off to Cody for trying to do something about it.
My job at RIESM was dissection, autopsy, documenting disease path and treating the sick ones. I watched many T's die a horrible death from nematodes. Hopefully there are more scientists out there who give a crap about this problem but I doubt it.
I am sorry but your bacterial questions will have to be answered elsewhere. The bacteria/nematode relationship is well known. Information on nematodes is found easily enough on the internet. Try searching genus or species.
Also, we never used wormers.

ALL RIESM REPORTS WERE POSTED ON THIS BOARD. Search Larry Boyd too.
The USDA was also involved in some research, search Lynn Carta.

Good luck and best regards,

Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM
aka "this person"

Where is the complete study? Where did it show the bacteria was symbotic AND the loss of it a cause of death to the worms? I am not seeing this data....

In fact, I looked over posts from this person and noticed they believe antibiotics and wormers would be necessary....

 

[wedge07]

I was thinking that species specific information would be good because maybe eventually we might be able to determine which species are more susceptible to nematodes. Some may just have weaker immune systems or simply because we have Ts from all over the world some may not encounter nematodes in their natural environment and simply have no natural defenses for infestation.

 

[BrianWI]

Kerry,

The only thing I saw was one post by you stating a complete cure would likely require both Antibitoics AND Anthelminics(elsewhere on this board). Maybe you changed your mind later, unknown.

In any case, was any data salvaged fom your research? I have done many self-funded projects (I feel our pain) although since mine had commercial apps, at least most eventually got funded. Either way, the data always made it thru to others. Is that possible yet, I would love to review it. I do have some data coming already, but you can never have enough!

In any case, if it exists anywhere, I'd appreciate knowing.

 

[Draiman]

Your T is probably fine don't worry, what he was asking was if the T holds the palps underneath the fangs. When the infestation gets bad, they kind of hang their palps underneath their fangs and no longer use them for balance, walking, etc. They are practically immobile just like the chelicerae when the worms get that bad.

Oh and I was diggin around and found these pics. THIS is when you have to worry!!!!
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83915

My Avic only had a very small fraction of that. Awesome pics but that is one unfortunate T.

That's just sad, and sick. Much worse than what I saw in the crickets.

I don't think my OBT holds her palps under her fangs, but I'll be keeping a close eye for the next week or so.

 

[CodeWilster]

I should let you guys know that although Kerry posted a few minutes ago clap: ) I wouldn't plan on getting in touch with him on the boards again!!! (There are many reasons why some scientists avoid open forums like this one, I'm sure that you can all see many reasons why) He did just send me an actual document from Larry Boyd. It is a preliminary report of isolates from G. Rosea with intermittent mouth exudates (that's the title) he told me the same thing is on the boards somewhere. Thanks Kerry! Here it is:

Research institute for Exotic Species Microbiology
C/O Parabola Laboratory Services
307 North Olympic Ave, Suite 209
Arlington, WA 98223
360-435-5540


Preliminary report of isolates from G. Rosea with intermittent mouth exudates

August 8, 2003

From Mouth:

Unknown yeast like isolate
This yeast like isolate was taken to Montana State University where a mycologist suggested it resembled a Ustalago species; Ustalago is a plant pathogen causing a variety of smuts on cereal grains. I do not agree with this identification and have sent the specimen to the mycology dept. of Cornell University for further study.

It is quite possible that this is a cause of disease. We do not know the normal microbial flora yet so this is uncertain. I am asking Dr. Pizzi to suggest treatments, however a trial treatment with nystatin oral, as used for thrush in infants, might be worthwhile.

Staphylococcus epidermidis
This is common human normal flora and is unlikely to be a source of disease. This is uncertain as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.

Bacillus like sp. (not anthracis or thuringiensis)
Identification is not complete for this organism. The species above and several others have been ruled out. This organism may be a member of the B. Circulans group, a Paenibacillus sp. or a Brevibacillus sp. This may be a cause of disease, B. thuringiensis is a known pathogen of insects and other Bacillus species may be pathogenic for spiders. This is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula. Some Bacillus species are antibiotic resistant, especially to the penicillin family, ciprofloxacin has been used successfully against penicillin resistant Bacillus species.

Proteus vulgaris
This organism is normal intestinal flora in many warm-blooded animals. Proteus species have been implicated in spider disease in the literature. This is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.

Moraxella canis
Members of the Moraxella group are normal flora in the respiratory tract of man and dogs and cats. They are opportunistic pathogens of man and animals. The meaning of this isolate is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.
Moraxella atlantae
Members of the Moraxella group are normal flora in the respiratory tract of man and dogs and cats. They are opportunistic pathogens of man and animals. The meaning of this isolate is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.


From Feces

Citrobacter sp.
Species identification is not yet complete. Members of the Citrobacter group are normal flora in the digestive tract of man and animals. They are opportunistic pathogens of man and animals. The meaning of this isolate is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.

Proteus mirabilis
Members of the Proteus group are normal flora in the digestive tract of man and animals. They are opportunistic pathogens of man and animals. The meaning of this isolate is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.

Proteus vulgaris
Members of the Proteus group are normal flora in the digestive tract of man and animals. They are opportunistic pathogens of man and animals. The meaning of this isolate is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.

Pseudomonas luteola
Members of the Pseudomonas group are common in nature especially water. They are opportunistic pathogens of man and animals. The meaning of this isolate is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.

Achromobacter (Asacchroltic group)
Members of the Achromobacter/ Alcaligenes group are common in nature. They are rarely opportunistic pathogens of man and animals. The meaning of this isolate is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.

Enterobacter sp.
Members of the Enterobacter group are normal flora in the digestive tract of man and animals. They are opportunistic pathogens of man and animals. The meaning of this isolate is uncertain, as we do not yet understand the normal microbial flora of the tarantula.


This report shows how little we know about the microbial ecology of spiders especially the tarantulas. It also shows how important it is that we learn about what is normal and what is abnormal.

With no scientific basis at all, I believe you should concern your self with the first and third isolates. Please consult a veterinarian and discuss these findings; only a veterinarian is qualified to recomend the medicines that may be effective against these organisms and remain safe for your tarantulas. Please remember that much of this data is preliminary and may be changed as further studies progress.

Thank you very much for participating our research program on tarantula microbiology.


Sincerely yours,
Larry D. Boyd
Research Microbiologist
Research Institute for Exotic Species Microbiology

pretty interesting stuff, lots of organisms in there!!!

 

[BrianWI]

Hmmm, seems pretty unrelated to nematodes, implicating a fungus in this case....

Seems better studied need be done.

 

[CodeWilster]

Hmmm, seems pretty unrelated to nematodes, implicating a fungus in this case....

Seems better studied need be done.

Look at the first e-mail from Kerry I put up. I know nothing of the fungus but it had to do with their analysis/research with the infected Ts.

 

[wedge07]

We need a comparison study done. Do we really know what bacteria/pathogens are present in a normal healthy tarantula? We don't even know if all species carry the same bacteria and/or are susceptible to them. I think it is feasible to believe that OW species and NW species would have different bacteria and are susceptible to different pathogens.

 

[CodeWilster]

Wish RIESM was still up and running I'd have various specimens and samples in the mail first thing tomorrow.

 

[Bill S]

We need a comparison study done. Do we really know what bacteria/pathogens are present in a normal healthy tarantula? We don't even know if all species carry the same bacteria and/or are susceptible to them. I think it is feasible to believe that OW species and NW species would have different bacteria and are susceptible to different pathogens.

I agree, and would possibly carry it further. We know that in reptiles there are are protozoans that are normal flora in some species within a genus and pathogenic in others, and even some, such as a species of Salmonella (sonorae?), that is normal flora under normal conditions but pathogenic under stress conditions. There's no reason to assume the same situation can't occur in tarantulas.

Similarly, it's very possible that some species of tarantulas will have higher resistence to parasitic nematodes than others, or at least better resistence to particular species of parasitic nematodes.

And there still seems to be a tendency here to refer to nematodes as if they were all the same. There are many, many varieties. Not all are parasitic, and not all share the same life cycles. The means of "spreading" could vary quite a bit from one type of parasitic nematode to another. There are no doubt several different species of nematodes that can attack crickets - and some of those may also be able to parasitize tarantulas as well. Or be able to parasitize SOME VARIETIES of tarantulas.

Realistically, a lot of work remains to be done. First step would be to identify species of nematodes that attack tarantulas and identify their life cycles, including intermediate hosts. Second would be to identify which species of tarantulas are susceptible to nematodes, and which nematodes they are susceptible to. Armed with that information, we'd be in a much better position to actually protect our collections. Otherwise we're not far from battling superstitions and myths, as we often see happening here with "mites" (which as often as not are Collembola or other non-threats).

 

[wedge07]

We should start with a thread specifically for nematode reports. Not just one with all the idle banter such as this one. This way we could help each other out. I am sure someone on the board is capable of doing a small study on nematodes in their spare time. Because we really need someone who can analyze samples sent to them.

 

[MizM]

Kerry, you and R.I.E.S.M. did an amazing service to this hobby and those of us who know appreciate every second and every dime spent of your search for a solution to this vexing problem. Our only regret is that the hobby didn't band together and help with funding to keep you going and find complete answers.

Those who keep uttering "Someone needs to look into this" need to look into the cost and time involved to study these microorganisms. A simple thread about nematodes won't help, we need a fully equipped lab, scanning electron microscopes, and most importantly, scientists who care enough to take the immense amount of time it's going to take to figure this out.

I am breaking my rule and posting on an internet board. I need my head examined.
First...
THERE IS NO COMPLETE STUDY BY RIESM.
RIESM was the first to do this kind of research and we were funding it with our own money to help the hobbyist. We could not sustain that and sadly it all ended due to lack of funds. If you want to continue this research knock yourself out and bring LOTS of cash. But be prepared to be flamed for doing so. I am helping Cody out using what we found during our research and my personal experience. If that's not enough for you, sorry.
Hats off to Cody for trying to do something about it.
My job at RIESM was dissection, autopsy, documenting disease path and treating the sick ones. I watched many T's die a horrible death from nematodes. Hopefully there are more scientists out there who give a crap about this problem but I doubt it.
I am sorry but your bacterial questions will have to be answered elsewhere. The bacteria/nematode relationship is well known. Information on nematodes is found easily enough on the internet. Try searching genus or species.
Also, we never used wormers.

ALL RIESM REPORTS WERE POSTED ON THIS BOARD. Search Larry Boyd too.
The USDA was also involved in some research, search Lynn Carta.

Good luck and best regards,

Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM
aka "this person"

 

[wedge07]

I just recently really got back into the hobby. I would have loved to have made some donations to REISM if the opportunity had been available. Though sadly they have disbanded and we now have to find the answers on our own. Until just recently I didn't really know much about T ailments. Once i found out about nematodes and other ailments I started research. The more research I do the more I realize how little we really know about tarantula physiology. So now as my collection expands my interest in tarantula physiology has also expanded. Unfortunately I am not able to help as much as I would like to. Though as a group we might be able do something, at the very least we will learn something along the way.

 

[Paramite]

Guys... Have you even considered the option that nematodes could naturally born in the place you live in? I understand it must be depressing to think about. Like I've said few times before, I've never heard of a nematode case here and there's LOTS of WC tarantulas. We also don't have any kind of tarantulas in the wild, so I think it's logical, we don't have any parasites that commonly attack them.