Nematodes

[CodeWilster]

So I've had this problem child Avicularia aurantiaca that seemed to just always have mites on her. Recently, I've been having to flush her with water as the mites started infesting her mouth parts. I hadn't looked underneath her chelicerae for three days, and looked under them today to find a small white gooey mass; nematodes,-along with a couple mites. I quickly flushed her mouth with water, separated her from the collection and hit the internet.

I can't believe this hit my collection, and so far she is the only individual that clearly has them. Unfortunately, I've got dozens and dozens of spiders all in their jars and tubs neatly squished together. I will be SOL if this spreads! I don't know what to do. I've heard a lot about these things and just simply can't believe that within a year this rare, devastating problem has happened to me. I've heard that they are incurable, the spider is toast, they spread without warning and in no apparent specific way, they can even effect humans, etc.

The Avic I have only had for about 4 weeks, maybe not even that I can't remember. She is CB and about 3.5-4". I would post pics but unfortunately my camera is at work. It is very obvious she has nematodes though.

I'm posting this to get the most recent update on controlling parasitic mites, if any break-throughs have come at all within the last few months. I've heard that flushing with a saline solution controls the nematodes to a certain extent. Does anybody know what is the most affective salt form and ratios for this treatment? Does anybody know what other treatments exist? Does anybody know a professional who could use samples of these nematodes, my infected Avic as a specimen to study, or experiments I could perform myself?

Thanks
~Cody

 

[zwd22]

First the nematodes that infect tarantulas and humans are no where near the same, they are usually relatively "species"(no species as in genus species, but more broad) specific.

Second nematode doesn't spread by air, they are worms. Very small worms. They usually travel from host to host by means of other vectors like flies and originate from feeder insects.

As for treatment, I am sorry to say that there hasn't been a lot of successes. I heard that some people had successes with changing the temperature quickly and drastically(forgot what the range was), but it was only attempted on more hardy species that can tolerate sudden changes in temperatures(eg.rosies) I think that if u try it on avics it would just kill the T as well.

For mites, unless they are on the T they are usually not harmful, and rather beneficial. U can actually control the parasitic mites by the use of scavenging mites and isopods.

 

[CodeWilster]

First of all thanks for the reply...

First the nematodes that infect tarantulas and humans are no where near the same, they are usually relatively "species"(no species as in genus species, but more broad) specific.

So are these tarantula/spider specific?

Second nematode doesn't spread by air, they are worms. Very small worms. They usually travel from host to host by means of other vectors like flies and originate from feeder insects.

I understand they are worms, I do have some background on these things I should say. And "very small worms" yes, but some I pulled off the T were at least a mm. And if they can be spread by flies then in a sense they can definitely be spread by air, even though I did not say that in the first place. And also, you are saying that they are derived from feeder insects. Do you have a source for this? I'd be interested!

As for treatment, I am sorry to say that there hasn't been a lot of successes. I heard that some people had successes with changing the temperature quickly and drastically(forgot what the range was), but it was only attempted on more hardy species that can tolerate sudden changes in temperatures(eg.rosies) I think that if u try it on avics it would just kill the T as well.

I believe I remember this, but somewhat vaguely. If I can recall, it was with Grammostola rosea, and temps were raised to 100 degrees for 5 days then was dropped to around 80 for a while then brought back up again for another 5 days. I am almost certain this would kill an Avic. I wonder if it would be effective to raise temps into the 90's? However I'm also wondering if temps are not raised high enough to kill the worms if it will just make them reproduce faster.

For mites, unless they are on the T they are usually not harmful, and rather beneficial. U can actually control the parasitic mites by the use of scavenging mites and isopods.

This post has nothing to do with mites. I only mentioned them because I'm very detail oriented and so consequently I pointlessly talked about them to lead to my discovery of the nematodes (read my post again) So, sorry about that! The mites mean nothing to me at this point as things are much more serious now. Although hey now that I think of it, could the mites eat nematodes?

 

[G. pulchra]

Is it a W/C tarantula?

 

[CodeWilster]

Is it a W/C tarantula?

Nope. Read the third paragraph of my first post. At least it was sold to me CB anyway.

 

[Aubrey Sidwell]

Your spider could be CB but it could have been held in a collection with WC before you bought it. The best prevention for your collection now that you have a confirmed case is to seperate the cages by as much distance as possible and begin monitoring them. It sounds like a waste but I would take your Avic straight to the freezer and get it over with. The death is long as they can't drink or eat and basically starve to death. All the research being done and things tried by even the most experienced have little hope of saving an infected tarantula. I would also clean all the cages of the rest of your collection and put in new substrate. Keep an eye on the rest and look for signs. Not eating or attacking prey, palps held to their chelicerae, copious webbing, and restlessness. You can lightly shake a cage to check a suspected infection. Tarantulas that are more progressed will lose balance and will not put their palps down for stability. Any that fail this I would put in quarantine until you can determine if they are infected or not. The white mass of worms present at the mouth parts is a dead giveaway. I had a breakout and still use the same feeder source I always have and have had no more problems. I believe wild caught to be a major source and I received a WC Pamphobeteus male that I was going to keep for my CB female once he matured. He wasn't the first to die but he did eventually succumb to nematodes.

 

[Satellite Rob]

Cody Keep your B.Baumgarteni far away from her.I'm going to check some
things out and get back to you.I know you got some other new bugs last week.Move all new bugs to another room.If you can.I know a breeder in
germany who just got controll of the this problem and I'll ask him what he
did.You got to keep away from W.C. imports.

Satellite Rob

 

[reptist]

I would say that the mites are verry important in this scenerio as a vector for transfering the parasitic nematodes to other T's in the collection, mites can easily go from cage to cage and drag the other parasites w/ them, mites can usualy be irradicated by cleaning the cage well, adding only the bare nesessities, I have used dry paper towels and a verry shallow water dish about every 3 days for 6-12 hrs, keep this up till no more mites are observed, this dries out the mites and they will die well before the T desicates, hope this helps, I have not had nematodes but have heard stories and first and foremost you want to stop the spread ASAP as it can destroy an entire collection if it is left to its own devices, PEACE, B.

 

[zwd22]

By species specific i meant that a nematode from a Tarantula can't infect a cat or a lizard or a frog or that kind of thing, I actually don't know how specific nematodes get to. This is a response to ur worry that u might get nematode from your T I shoulda made that clearer.

I think there are a lot of posts that said that crickets have the potential to carry nematodes. Most of the stuff i know is from making small talk with Amanda when i'm helping out at Tarcan.

 

[mingu]

Here's a good link about nematode worms. I hope this helps.
http://www.giantspiders.com/article12.html

 

[CodeWilster]

Here's a good link about nematode worms. I hope this helps.
http://www.giantspiders.com/article12.html

Yep I've read that one several times

Thanks for the replies everybody! Also, I contacted somebody who had a ton of connections that got me hooked up with their information. We'll see how things go, according to them some have completely cured this problem.

The pinktoe has been separated completely from the rest of my Ts. I've inspected all of the others and have two others that although have no worms visible could potentially be infested, as they have not eaten anything in a while and the abdomens are beginning to shrivel These will also be completely separated. I'll keep everybody posted and thanks for the help.

Also, nobody has said a word about a saline solution treatment. I read about that somewhere and would still like to know details as far as the science behind that as well as measurements/ratios to perform some type of treatment (well not exactly treatment but I heard it helps). I'm evenly split between throwing this poor thing in the freezer and trying to miraculously save its life. I do have some formalin if anybody could use the preserved nematode specimens. I will try to get some ethanol as well if anybody could use the dead specimen SHOULD she die.

Oh and thanks Satellite Rob, if you do find out either forward me their e-mail or give me a call! And don't worry the B. baumgarteni is completely safe

I am going to do another inspection and some cleaning today. The thing is is that less than a month ago I switched ALL of my tanks over to plastic tubs from superior enterprise with either wet or dry coconut bedding. All cork that was placed in one gallon jars from the old tanks were thoroughly boiled. This was just supposed to be a fresh new start to keep mites out. It did work as far as mites are concerned.

Thanks again everybody and please continue to post.

P.S. Does anybody know how to destroy bacterial infections in tarantulas? (I've heard that the nematodes have a symbiotic relationship with a type of bacteria)

 

[reptist]

A starting point

This is by no means a guaranteed cure but I have seen it done and have witnesed it working on a spider with the verry first signs of the white goo on the bottom of the mouthparts, the spider in question is alive today, goo free and this procedure was started about 90 days ago, however the spider has not eaten and was not in premolt as far as I could tell, the spider didnt hold its palps in the way described by some as "never touching the ground" so I assume that that symptom comes after the goo is well established on the mouth area, here are the steps that were shown/told to me.

first seperate the spider from the collection by at least a room, he put it in an enclosure w/dry paper towels and a water dish only, he picked the spider up and with a needleless syringe thouroughly sprayed the mouth parts with as much preasure as he could push out of it at least 3 or 4 times, then he took a large needle and scraped the area at the bottom of the mouth where the V is formed oppisite the fangs (where the goo had caked and stuck) he scraped the area gently but completely till we were satisfied he had removed all that could be removed, rinsing occasionaly with the clean water in the syringe to remove some of what had been loosened by scraping

Next, he got about 10 cc's of water and put about 2 drops of a product made by gel tek for treating fish tanks just labled penicillin, mixed it up real good to a uniform color and teased the spider till it extended its fangs, inserted a needleless syringe w/ the solution in it as far as possible into the spiders mouth and squirted it quickly as far and fast as he could into the T, most just dribbled out but I thought some had to have taken, he put the spider back in the dry paper towel enclosure and it went and drank for a while and then did what I can only describe as regurgitated some white stuff in the water bowl and there was alot of goo now on the area just cleaned, he took the water bowl (condiment cup) and threw it away got a new one w/ clean water and rinced the spiders mouthparts again w/ the syringe and clean water till it was as goo free as possible and returned the T to its enclosure

3 days later the T had the goo built up again in the same area so the procedure was repeated and again every 3 days till after about 6 treatments the goo stopped coming back, the area that had been scraped had what appeared to be a scar but no more goo had appeared since the 6th treatment, no more treatments were administered since, and the spider although it has not eaten appears healthy, palps are held and used normaly, and its reactions seem coordinated and normal, food is offered weekly and removed after 24 hrs, water is allowed to become completely dry for a day before refilling since the goo stopped reapearing, but was kept topped off as long as goo was present, the spider was W/C in extreme south AZ/NM area and as far as I know an undescribed species, prob Aphonopelma, he's thinking a molt may bring the spider to feeding again but that is yet to be seen.

like I said I have no scientiffic info as to why this would work or any real proof that it will work on others or even a confident stance that it has worked on his spider but I watched at least 2 treatments and can witness to the fact that the white goo has appearantly stopped building up on the mouth parts of this specimen for an extended period of time, which according to all I have read and been told, is not the normal route this parasite takes in a host, so I can only assume (or am just hoping maybe) that what he has done has slowed or stopped the parasites progression in his spider.

If other T's are treated w/ this method and it has the same effect then I may stand behind it w/ more conviction but for now this is just what I was told and what I saw, hope it turns out to be more than luck or coincidence as this is a fatal parasite that can take a collection down and needs to be eliminated or at least be treatable!!! I would appreciate any info from those that may subsequently end up trying this method weather the info is good or bad it is still info and the hobby as a whole, on this issue, is severely lacking in that dept. FINGERS CROSSED, and PEACE, B.

 

[jasen&crystal]

H. miles [preditorey mites] may help the spred of neamatoads they wont eat the one's in your T but may help keep them from spreding, they do eat all the ones in the soil and such
ps. crickets are often carriers of neamatoads!

 

[CodeWilster]

Thanks Brandon for the in-depth post. And this problem that is driving me insane is also fascinating me, I think I am going to work hard at finding a cure vs breeding and rearing Ts like I am now. My whole collection is in "quarantine" right now anyway. All suspicious victims of this infestation have been removed to a separate area.

I should mention that yesterday I flushed the pinktoe with a saline solution in the mouth parts as well as the entire sternum and surrounding areas (the nematodes apparently also thrive deep in the cavities of this area). My next question, is how long does it take for the white mass to return? Because I looked at the pinktoe today and could not find a single nematode. In fact, the spider's chelicerae were completely dry and the spider is using its palps for balance! I honestly think that the salt solution killed a lot of the exposed nematodes infesting the outer oral cavity. This brings to question, as single-cell organisms can nematodes experience plasmolysis similar to plant cells? (sorry, am still getting standard biology out of the way) I have a feeling they will be back but I think the saline solution helped with the bulk of the visible nematodes.

KTBG brought up a good point that a very healthy spider could be able to fight off this problem. Although the immune system could not fight off the actual parasitic nematodes, it may be able to fight the bacteria infection that thrives symbiotically with the parasites. Therefore, without the bacteria the nematodes might not (will not?) survive. I'm assuming this is what happened with the T you [Brandon] mentioned, as penicilin is an antibiotic.

So this is getting pretty interesting, but where are the microbiologists on a sunday night?

 

[wedge07]

Nematodes are not single celled organisms, just parasites.

 

[CodeWilster]

Nematodes are not single celled organisms, just parasites.

Whoops got them mixed up with protazoans for a sec :wall: Thanks, but to correct you, not all are parasitic

 

[treeweta]

This is by no means a guaranteed cure but I have seen it done and have witnesed it working on a spider with the verry first signs of the white goo on the bottom of the mouthparts, the spider in question is alive today, goo free and this procedure was started about 90 days ago, however the spider has not eaten and was not in premolt as far as I could tell, the spider didnt hold its palps in the way described by some as "never touching the ground" so I assume that that symptom comes after the goo is well established on the mouth area, here are the steps that were shown/told to me.

B.

reptist.

so this is for actual nematodes?

(3 years ago) i had 4 blondis, 2 juveniles, 2 slings, feeding on crickets, they all got white paste symptoms, like chalky paste (it looks more like their own poop for want of a better description), not the nematode yellowish goo.

the two slings dies within days, the juveniles seemed to recover but when fed again with crickets got the same, they both ended up with oddly bald rear tarsi and the tarsal claws were fixed and immovable and also a reddish brown speckling of the pink abdominal skin, also the tank smelled of ammonia or similar.

Anyway i switched to roaches and kept the tanks drier than usual, they recovered again, started feeding on roaches and were fine and moulted again and recovered the normal tarsi etc. since then one lost its fangs at a moult and died, the second seemed perfectly healthy (now a young adult) until this week and is now sufferening some type of mild diskinetic syndrome like symptoms, may or may not be connected to that initial infection.

mine seeminly had some type of bacterial infection and not nematodes (seems that nematodes is alway quickly fatal), do you think this is what the treatment possibly cured?

 

[CodeWilster]

mine seeminly had some type of bacterial infection and not nematodes (seems that nematodes is alway quickly fatal), do you think this is what the treatment possibly cured?

I'll let reptist answer your question but I'd like to say a few things too

What you describe could just be some type of bacterial infection. I think it is more common in Ts than we think. The cilia (is that correct for tarantulas? :? ) in the mouth that filter what they ingest do an incredible job. However, there are many other ways for foreign bodies to make their way in including through the anus, book lungs, etc. If I had to guess I would say that some type of bacteria made it into your Ts this way IF it was in fact an infection. We have to remember that tarantulas do "drool" from time to time too. Although for all the specimens of mine that I have caught doing this, the "drool" was always crystal clear. I think I read somewhere a while ago that this is hemolymph the spiders secrete from the fangs.
Another thing is that "goo" usually means nematodes but goo is not exactly the most accurate term. If the tarantula is infested with nematodes, the goo is actually the mass of worms ranging in many different stages/sizes. Take some of this "goo" and put it into a vial filled with alcohol, cap it and shake it and you'll see hundreds of tiny worms. I'm sure part of the goo is hemolymph, water, etc too though. If you do not see any worms, it could be anything from hemolymph to water that was mixed with something already contaminating the tarantulas mouth parts, etc. etc.
It's sad that the majority of your Ts didn't make it! Which is why I would say it was in fact some type of bacterial infection.

Also back to what you said, yes nematodes do kill a T quickly, but I am not sure as to what your perception of "quickly" is. Because they do usually live another month even at advanced stages. It all depends a lot on the size of your T and I'm sure many other factors.

The tarantula I am going to treat could have been infected for three months now, maybe longer, and only now are the nematodes beginning to build up and become more visible in external areas. So, therefore it is not like if one sees a little mass of worms on their T they should freak out and throw it into the freezer right away; as the mind set of so many T keepers seems to be. As freaked out as I was a few days ago, nematodes are not as bad as one might think. Yeah they are deadly, but really the only time it will "destroy your entire collection" is when you do nothing after seeing it. Take the right precautions, monitor your Ts, and should you run into this RARE problem isolate the victim(s) as quickly and efficiently as possible and hope for the best. (or be like me and slam the internet, old biology teachers, PHDs, etc etc lol)

I have contacted a microbiologist and we are communicating personally. This particular person was formerly a member of the boards but has since left the hobby. I will do all that I can to get answers from this person, as it is not everyday that these types of people do not mind being bothered!!! I must say that hopefully within the next few weeks this thread will turn out to be very useful, maybe even have the solution to this problem. I am conducting experiments as we speak. Thanks again for the replies everyone, I will be keeping you posted as I learn more and more until the PHD is fed up with me !!!

~Cody

 

[reptist]

I have heard others mention a foul smell associated w/ this type of problem, I didnt think to smell the area where the spider was but was pretty close to it many times and noticed no unusual or out of place odor, I realy cant say what the treatments are treating, the idea stated earlier in this thread of a bacteria being needed for the worms to survive and the penicilin killing off the bacteria therefore killing the worms seems to be a possibility that would fit in w/ what I have observed, I dont know enough yet to give an answer, there may be 2 differant problems that both include the white discharge from the mouth as a symptom, one that smells and one that doesent........ B.

 

[CodeWilster]

I just got a very informative e-mail from the microbiologist with nematode/tarantula experience. I will keep the points blunt, however this information is directly from them:

The goo is primarily the bacteria, it is necrotic, and is indeed a symbiont to the nematodes.

The nematodes seem to thrive best in the mouth parts, although how it gets there is still somewhat unknown. They also can be found in the anus, book lungs, and other abdominal tissues.

Because the bacteria is the co-culprit in the death of the spider, antibiotics are really the only way to destroy the infestation. Topical broad-spectrum antibacterials have proven to help and even stop the infestation. As far as exact measurements go in what type and how much, is hit and miss due to an array of factors.

The spiders do not eat nor drink when the infestation has reached it's advanced stage (duh) however spiders will often soak their fangs/entire bodies in water while infected. Keep in mind that the nematodes can survive in the water for a day or so.

Keep infected Ts isolated and completely dry, vermiculite should be used as a substrate as it is dessicating to the nematode, and should you choose to use a hide-away, use plastic and nothing organic.

When taking a sample or swipe of the "goo", juvenile nematodes to gravid females are usually what is present.

hopefully much more to come...